jay
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Post by jay on Aug 30, 2015 7:54:31 GMT -8
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Woodsie
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Colorado
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Post by Woodsie on Aug 30, 2015 8:09:53 GMT -8
Like the article said, "There is always a bad apple or two." Unfortunately, all it takes is a few people to ruin it for everyone. It doesn't take very many inconsiderate, irresponsible hikers to give a bad name to all the thru hikers. And the fella who was upset he got a ticket for consuming alcohol on top of Katahdin - well, he violated the rules. If you must have a drink to celebrate the end of your thru hike, take non-alcoholic sparkling cider.
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Post by bradmacmt on Aug 30, 2015 8:27:01 GMT -8
I don't think it's just a "few bad apples." I tend to think there are more and more "entitled", self-absorbed people in our society who have little or no respect for others, and who lack any real "wilderness ethic", something that has fallen by the wayside as an antiquated notion.
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jay
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Post by jay on Aug 30, 2015 8:57:56 GMT -8
I tend to try to get as far off the beaten path as possible, myself. When I go on a trek, I usually try to find little used paths so I can have some people free time, so I don't see a lot of this. I do find it concerning that some places, like the one mentioned in the article, are considering shutting areas down in an effort to combat this problem.
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BigLoad
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Post by BigLoad on Aug 30, 2015 9:13:44 GMT -8
Although such behavior is uncommon in the backcountry, I've noticed a slight increase, especially among large groups. The last bunch of scouts that camped near us in the Sawtooths whooped and hollered well past midnight, despite having several groups of neighbors. Their leaders made no attempt to contain the shenanigans. Needless to say, they still all snoring like buffalo when we hit the trail the next day.
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Westy
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Post by Westy on Aug 30, 2015 9:14:29 GMT -8
As thru-hiking and segment hiking increases on the triple crown trails expect more of the same. Increased traffic is due to population growth, pop culture glamorization ("Wild"), misconstrued "get back to nature" solution's for personal problems and outdoor recreation trends all have an impact on increased use. Of particular concern from my observations is a reverse in LNT trends. Root cause is both lack of emphasis on backcountry education and respect for your fellow man.
Wee Willy Keeler, a Hall of Fame baseball player and lifetime .341 hitter gave this advice to hitters. "Hit 'em where they ain't!"
Perhaps planning a slight offset of the traditional hiking seasons might enhance one's personal quest for a more solitary experience. Moving dates to start early or late, southbound or northbound may alleviate trail congestion.
"entitled", self-absorbed people Maybe this belongs on the TPA but while we are on the subject. I think the underlying and most serious problem facing our country today is bad manners. Please and thank you are no longer the magic words. Civility has been discarded and does not sell well in our current culture. It translates into the not, overblown article referenced above.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2015 10:08:47 GMT -8
The article hints at the deep reservations I have about the often-recited notion that "more people in the outdoors will result in more interest in protecting the outdoors." I have my doubts that that is true.
Instead, what may be happening is that those "more people" are bringing more bad habits to the outdoors instead of learning the good habits some of us would like to see in the outdoors. Unfortunately, some folks who hike for freedom also think that not respecting the rules also gives them freedom. But that lack of respect may eventually backfire on us all — with a decrease in protection of wild areas.
It is not only the designation of wilderness that matters. It is the appreciation and active involvement of those who use the wild areas that is necessary for real protection.
Beyond that, I'm just not interested in the long-trail culture that places a trophy on completion of the trail, or on speed records, or worse yet, on so-called "triple crowns." So I have no sympathy for Scott Jurek. He broke the rules on Katahdin's summit, and he got busted for it. Good. Doing a long trail in 46 days didn't give him the right to break the rules.
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Post by bradmacmt on Aug 30, 2015 10:26:10 GMT -8
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davesenesac
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Post by davesenesac on Aug 30, 2015 10:26:21 GMT -8
I've been commenting for years on these issues that without enforcement, there will always be a minor number of people (bad apples) that will do whatever they d!@# well want to. Of course being rebellious to authority and policy has long been part of youth cultures that most adults grow out of. However in this era not so much. As long as such people receive no pain, nothing will change regardless of how much others educate or plead pretty please with them to be considerate. So in order to reduce those behaviors there needs to be some token level of enforcement and penalties. One appropriate penalty beyond fines would be to make violators take a wilderness ethic and policy test and be banned from receiving permits for a year or two. We simply need more backcountry rangers in our parks and trails. A little enforcement would go a long ways towards changing attitudes. I for one would welcome taking funding away from politicians and policy makers and instead directly funding rangers via trail fees. David www.davidsenesac.com/2015_Trip_Chronicles/2015_Trip-Chronicles-0.html
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rebeccad
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Post by rebeccad on Aug 30, 2015 11:15:59 GMT -8
Beyond that, I'm just not interested in the long-trail culture that places a trophy on completion of the trail, or on speed records, or worse yet, on so-called "triple crowns." So I have no sympathy for Scott Jurek. He broke the rules on Katahdin's summit, and he got busted for it. Good. Doing a long trail in 46 days didn't give him the right to break the rules. My feelings exactly. I admire his physical accomplishment--but as far as I'm concerned, speed records on the long trails are contrary to the point of the trails. And having his wife meet him every night so he can sleep in a van--yeah, not my idea of a through-hike. But even if it's the most amazing accomplishment in the world, if the law says no alcohol, save the champagne for your celebratory dinner in town. I have long had the impression that the AT has a major issue with being more of a party place than a wilderness experience, though. I noticed a comment in one of the articles from someone saying the trail "can handle the increased numbers if we can educate them about [LNT, proper behavior, etc.]" Mighty big "if," IMHO.
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Westy
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Post by Westy on Aug 30, 2015 12:04:56 GMT -8
This is all of interest to me, since I am tentatively planning to be a triple crown thru-hiker. Historically, I've finished (2) peak lists and working on (2) others. This has been on-going for over 40 years. Needless to say, I'm a list hiker. Part of my motivation is setting aggressive but achievable targets, trip planning and logistics. The thought of a triple crown, for me, would be the challenge, commitment and personal satisfaction of accomplishment. The ability to disconnect from today's technology for an extended period is extraordinarily appealing.
It's just like major league sports, there are some that "play the game the right way"and others that don't. I suppose the true soul searching is, "What actions can I take to improve backcountry ethics?" That's the real question before each of us.
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jay
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Post by jay on Aug 30, 2015 12:21:12 GMT -8
Westy,
My thoughts aren't that is so much a backcountry ethics problem, but an ethics problem as a whole. I don't think that most people care about anything past their own satisfaction very much anymore and the article highlights a symptom of that personality defect. One of the things I enjoy about getting into the rougher back country is that the few people I meet by and large still have that respect.
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Westy
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Post by Westy on Aug 30, 2015 12:25:14 GMT -8
In the end you are correct and I couldn't agree more. The backcountry ethics is simply a trickle down effect.
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reuben
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Post by reuben on Aug 30, 2015 13:29:41 GMT -8
I "liked" Brad's first post, but in reality I agree with his thoughts but dislike the behavior of some people.
And as both the article and Woodsie pointed out, it only takes a few bad apples, whether it's in a park, on a trail, at work, or anywhere else. When Westy said, "My thoughts aren't that is so much a backcountry ethics problem, but an ethics problem as a whole. I don't think that most people care about anything past their own satisfaction very much anymore...", he hit the nail on the head.
Last fall I went out for a weekend on the AT. There were a few Cub Scout and Boy Scout groups in addition to dayhikers, section hikers, and people out for a weekend like myself. Some of the Scouts just wanted to laugh and tell jokes - LOUDLY - all night. Where are the scoutmasters? If they have more kids than they can control then they need to take fewer kids or get more help. There are obvious problems with both of those solutions, but if no one tells them to shut up they be even more obnoxious in years to come. One of my friends finally went to their tent and told them to keep it down. They did (in teenager terms), but started up bright and early the next morning.
And for the record, if Jurek violated the rules then he should be fined accordingly. Setting a record (for whatever that's worth) is no excuse.
Signed,
Grumpy in Maryland
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BlueBear
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Post by BlueBear on Aug 30, 2015 13:41:40 GMT -8
As others have noted, to me it's just another good reason to avoid the "famous" trails, AT and PCT included. I'd dayhike them or backpack short sections, sure, but if I have 3-6 months off, there are far better things to do. Plenty of remote places still exist that are every bit as spectacular or more, even if (by definition) they're not really talked about much. Good.
But nothing attracts a crowd like a crowd. In order to "get away from it all", folks seem gravitationally attracted to the exact same famous spots everyone else goes to "get away from it all." Ironic, perhaps. It's kinda like buying Rolling Stones concert tickets to get away from all the Beatles' fans.
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