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Post by absarokanaut on Nov 22, 2022 14:29:57 GMT -8
www.cnn.com/travel/article/grand-canyon-havasupai-gardens/index.htmlI've always thought Devil's Tower should go back to "Bear Lodge" but suspect the tribes have been persuaded to leave it alone. I still have a Mount McKinley National Park Guide but of course appreciate the respect returned to that gem. Mt. Doane needed to go too. Anybody that objects to renaming places named "Squaw" is IMO a misogynist or heartless ignoramus. With perhaps a few exceptions like the American Civil War history has generally been written by the victors. The war on history will go on as long as decent people remain apathetic and silent. Can we honor the truths of the past without provoking the prejudices of the present?
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driftwoody
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Post by driftwoody on Nov 22, 2022 18:08:20 GMT -8
Thoroughly discussing this topic can be difficult outside of TPA. In general I'd say that if Native Americans truly revered the geographical feature and are offended by the name applied by those who took their lands, I favor going with the original Native name -- especially if the name is inherently offensive, like "Squaw." Perhaps "Devil's" is also offensive, though I hadn't thought of it that way.
Many years ago I summited the highest point in South Dakota, Harney Peak. Last year I summited the same peak, now named Black Elk. I had no problem whatsoever with the name change.
I think history is very important to understanding where we've been and where we should go. Rewriting history is not necessarily a bad thing, especially because early versions that became widely accepted were often flawed with factual errors, omissions, and bias. Dedicated scholarship with relevant context has improved our understanding of the past while making it more meaningful to our present and future.
Confederate monuments erected in public squares as assertions of White supremacy during the Jim Crow era are truly offensive, in my opinion. I support their removal to museums where they can be displayed with the full context of their history.
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zeke
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Post by zeke on Nov 22, 2022 18:21:23 GMT -8
Renaming a 14'er in Colorado was wise, IMO. That particular governor had some involvement with setting up a massacre. Only makes sense to change the name.
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Travis
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Post by Travis on Nov 22, 2022 20:40:10 GMT -8
I've always thought Devil's Tower should go back to "Bear Lodge" but suspect the tribes have been persuaded to leave it alone. First, a disclaimer of sorts. I live in the Bear Lodge area. And maybe I am too "involved" with this issue to see outside it from the perspective of an average "American." But I don't think Native tribes will ever accept or acquiesce to the name "Devils Tower." I hope not. Yet considering that counties and towns in my area are named after reputed "Indian fighters," we have a long way to go before the maps display any measure of justice to the peoples our forebears corralled into "reservations." Why did they? Mostly because those darker-skinned people seemed too much of an inconvenience to the marauding façade of civilization overrunning the places they called home. If any of us as parents had young darker-skinned children in a darker-skinned school, how would we like to see their school named the "Devil's School"? That is as briefly as I can sum up the long explanation I could give for why it matters. It's not my place to blame everyone around me. But I see my area as a fringe subculture of fringe America. So it's not surprising that people who care will quickly use the excuse that their commercial interest would be harmed by a name change. In general, the others don't care and don't want anyone telling them what something should be called. I think they see it as America's job to preserve their "lifestyle." And they speak of themselves as the true endangered species. The so-called "history" of American school-systems has been revisionist from the inception of public schools. The curriculum called "history" was designed to instill patriotism and the prevailing cultures' concept of morality. An honest telling of the past was never the purpose of public schools as they were first envisioned. And the fact that the purveyors' of such fiction now call the truth "revisionist history" is merely one of their feats of hypocrisy. I don't think it is any accident that the disestablishment of churches in the early 1800s was so quickly followed by the institution of compulsory public education.
But today, public education is not the problem. The problem is those people and constituencies who demand the teaching of their ethnocentrism as if it is the only story children (or adults) should ever hear — honest history and respectful place names be damned in the preference for narrow-minded ethnocentrism of delusional "tradition."
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swiftdream
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Post by swiftdream on Nov 23, 2022 6:37:38 GMT -8
Many of the place names such as Squaw were changed years ago around here. However replacements for Devils Tower just don’t have the same ring to it and I was raised on the Rez in my formative years. Feel free to disagree though. Even Americans of European descent are either changing place names or taking a dim view on many place names placed by others of the same lineage. I just went through the whole Mt McKinley thing in the Bradford Washington bio. Denali just sounds so much better and does have a ring to it.
If you pour over the much older USGS quads you will find some seriously offensive place names but many of them have been either changed or simply removed.
In my wilderness I name many unnamed places just as some ancient fellow before me did so we can communicate with our girlfriends or whoever about the landscape and possible destinations. Someone will rename them again in a hundred years. We hope they won’t be jackasses about it.
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Post by absarokanaut on Nov 23, 2022 8:11:07 GMT -8
Travis,
About 6 years ago I really tried to find any kind of truly organized opposition to continuing with the name "Devils Tower" but could not; you've inspired me to look again. Back then I reached out to tribal leaders to no avail. If anyone here knows of any organized efforts to change the name, however small, please let me know because I believe in honoring the "original" name if even just translated into English. All I could really find was the organized and vocal local merchant opposition to any name change, and as I remember they raised significant sums of money. This is the reason my speculation went the route it did and I of course could be be well off the mark. I "think" the biggest reason for local opposition to the name change is rotted in the tourist economy and the type of people local businesses want to attract. From a purely financial based perspective I think the name change would actually bring in more people and money so I'm thinking this may be far less about the money than the prospect of different kinds of visitors upsetting entrenched "tradition."
Swift Dream,
Years ago I remember some folks wanting to change the name to Bear Lodge, not Mato Tipila. Whatever "disagreement" we might have I personally think either name would be great. Given the explanation for Bear Lodge I'm interested in finding out why as far as I've been able to tell there is no CURRENT vocal and frequent demand to honor the translated Lakota name we've seen some tribal people assert. I am not Native American but learned a very little bit about the socioeconomic issues at Pine Ridge and so many other reservations. My Aunt was Mother Superior of the order of nuns that ran schools on the Reservation and my sister spent a summer there right about 50 years ago. I am just surprised no name change effort has been galvanized given the enthusiasm for name changes we see in so many other places. So any further insight you might have from your time there is most welcome.
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Post by absarokanaut on Nov 23, 2022 8:23:19 GMT -8
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Travis
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Post by Travis on Nov 23, 2022 9:41:50 GMT -8
While I was typing and organizing links, I guess you found your own, but I'll go ahead and post what I had written: absarokanaut , I wish more people in Wyoming had at least a hint of your attitude, but as the last link below illustrates, the powers that be in Wyoming have managed to stymie any progress toward a name change. The name "Bear Lodge" was what early maps of this area showed. That was the accepted name before army officers such as George Custer and Richard Dodge brought their rather inept translators to explore the area and its rumors of gold. You may recall how such mis-translations occasionally caused attempted or actual massacres of Native Americans in the army's attempt to tame the West for gold seekers, or, as the case may be, tame the gold seekers themselves. Somehow those inept translators did not restrain the naming of Custer county in various states or Dodge City in Kansas. But their rendition of Native languages into "Bad God's Tower," shortened to "The Devil's Tower," stuck to some, but not all, of newer maps. And that happened despite there being no other sources ascribing the name to Native sources. Even the name "Black Hills" appears to have been a mis-translation by army personnel. The Reuters link below gives a brief introduction to the Native proposal to return the name to Bear Lodge, which is also the name of the mountains around the Bear Lodge. The links from the NPS below give a brief history of that proposal, how the mistaken name originated, and how Wyoming's elected officials have managed to stonewall any correction of the place name back to Bear Lodge. From Reuters, 9-22-2015: Native Americans want name change for Wyoming's Devils TowerFrom the National Park Service: About the Name
ETA: I recall reading from Native sources on the Pine Ridge Reservation of Native support for the name change. I have no reason to believe their interests have subsided. But as you may see from the news, the powers that be have ways to stymie progress. That may leave us with little news, but it does not mean Native tribes have abandoned pursuit. Unfortunately I am short of time for now, but perhaps tomorrow I can find some of those Native sources.
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swiftdream
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Post by swiftdream on Nov 23, 2022 9:52:13 GMT -8
Absarocanaut, I could get used to a new or better “old” name for Devils Tower. Mato Tipila sounds better to my ears than the English translation. It takes a bit of something to get the Native Americans to become activists but when you do look out. A girlfriend in my early teenage years was related to Leonard Peltier, the imprisoned Pine Ridge activist. She carried the same last name. She was of course Ojibwe. Leonard and the rest were certainly done wrong beyond belief in earlier years as they still are but above all you will never find a more patriotic people. They are loving to amazing levels. Their humor amid the third world conditions they have been forced into is inspiring.
Columbus Day is a day of mourning on the Rez as you probably know. We have a long way to go to make any of this right for them. But with our running water and humongous grocery stores most of Euro descent are not inclined to get up off the couch. It’s a real conundrum that should have been solved long ago.
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Post by High Sierra Fan on Nov 23, 2022 11:19:15 GMT -8
“most of Euro descent are not inclined to get up off the couch.”
Just the sort of stereotype that really sets the right tone.
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swiftdream
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Post by swiftdream on Nov 23, 2022 11:35:02 GMT -8
While we are on the subject of renaming I’ll submit another. My earliest teenage girlfriend was Winnebago. Now most folks chuckle when they hear this. After all that’s an RV isn’t it? Some might call that cultural appropriation. I’m pretty sure the Winnebago Native Americans were here a bit before any motor vehicles.
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franco
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Post by franco on Nov 23, 2022 13:35:09 GMT -8
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balzaccom
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Post by balzaccom on Nov 23, 2022 17:09:54 GMT -8
And up near Lake Tahoe: A Lake Tahoe-area mountain with a distinctive outcrop jutting from its summit will no longer honor the president of the Confederacy.
On Thursday, the U.S. Board on Geographic Names approved a new name for Jeff Davis Peak. The mountain will now be called Da-ek Dow Go-et Mountain, a name proposed by the Hung-A-Lel-Ti Woodfords Washoe Tribe. It translates to "saddle between points."
All I need now is a little help in pronouncing: Da-ek Dow Go-et
Any suggestions on where the accented syllable might lie?
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Travis
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Post by Travis on Nov 23, 2022 20:50:10 GMT -8
Travis, About 6 years ago I really tried to find any kind of truly organized opposition to continuing with the name "Devils Tower" but could not; you've inspired me to look again. Back then I reached out to tribal leaders to no avail. If anyone here knows of any organized efforts to change the name, however small, please let me know because I believe in honoring the "original" name if even just translated into English. Swift Dream, Years ago I remember some folks wanting to change the name to Bear Lodge, not Mato Tipila. Whatever "disagreement" we might have I personally think either name would be great. Given the explanation for Bear Lodge I'm interested in finding out why as far as I've been able to tell there is no CURRENT vocal and frequent demand to honor the translated Lakota name we've seen some tribal people assert. Beyond the 2014 requests and the 2015 resolution below I'm just not finding any larger community organization of substance to support a name change. (Underlined emphasis is mine because that is the question I'm trying to address.) I think you are expecting too much here if constant agitation from the Lakota people for this name change is what you need. There are too many other priorities. The Lakota people are among the most impoverished citizens of the country. Tribal leaders made their position clear a few years ago, and I think that is current enough to take them seriously even today. Even the name change for Mount Doane was largely due to Lakota efforts, together with the Blackfeet tribe. That name change was not the result of constant reminders from either tribe. Those two tribes made their positions clear and there is simply no reason to suppose those positions would have changed years later if the name change had been further delayed. There are close to 6 million people in the US who identify as Native American. Registered tribal membership is somewhat less. Those Natives, as a whole or by tribe, have no representative in congress. Thus they have no voice of their own in our Government. Whether the name change proposed is in South Dakota or Wyoming, the Native voice is compromised by an overwhelming non-Native majority. To change a name, legislative or executive action on the Federal level is required. Many name changes are done through an executive department. That succeeded in securing such name changes as Denali, Black Elk Peak, and Mount Doane. But as I understand this issue, a congressman can block executive action by simply proposing a law codifying the name "Devils Tower." Until such proposed codification is voted up or down in congress, the executive branch cannot effectively change the name. (I linked this earlier.) The Lakota reservations are located in South Dakota. “Devils Tower” is located in Wyoming. South Dakota has over five times as many Natives as Wyoming does, yet even South Dakota officials would not support a name change for Harney Peak to Black Elk Peak. And with each successive congress, the Wyoming representative can simply propose the same law all over again and effectively block any executive department from enacting a name change. So that blocking action has been done by successive representatives from Wyoming, despite the fact that the proposed law was neither voted up nor down by the previous congress.
In other words, Wyoming can block change at the Federal level despite the state's entire population being only a small fraction of the population of Native peoples — with no voice in congress. I believe the Lakota people have as a whole made their position clear a few years ago. Considering the rather hopeless nature of pursuing the issue with successive agitations for change, there are other issues with higher priority until they find a congress willing to listen to them. Meanwhile, unfriendly forces are demanding permission to run a potentially leaking oil pipeline under the Oahe Reservoir despite Lakota opposition. An environmental catastrophe is a real possibility. Non-Native communities haven’t even supported the pipeline, yet the Lakota seem compelled to mount lawsuits, protests, and maybe even civil disobedience in North Dakota to get their concerns heard in their own state. Where is there spare time and extra funding to organize and re-organize against a name change in another state when there are even more issues demanding Lakota priorities? News media recently gave wide coverage to a blond-haired young lady named Gabby Petito — despite the fact that thousands of missing or murdered Native American women and children get little to no mention. We can't expect the Lakota people to abandon their concern for their own people in order to focus on one more mostly futile effort, so far, for a name change. To go a step further, there are other name changes and trampling of Lakota sites to be concerned with. Every year the Sturgis bike rally draws hundreds of thousands of Harley enthusiasts to the area near Bear Butte in South Dakota. Several tribes have objected to the trampling, but who is going to listen? The “Indigenous Nations of America” don’t even have a voice in congress. I hope we would all take a little more time to understand the frustration Natives feel when trying to get some consideration for their efforts to sustain their culture, something they were promised over and over by treaties from the very government they must go to now for consideration.
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zeke
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Post by zeke on Nov 24, 2022 9:26:01 GMT -8
Mod: Let's try to remember that this is not in TPA, and have some restraint. After some discussion, Mods agreed to remove 2 posts.
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