ErnieW
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Post by ErnieW on Jan 26, 2017 18:30:59 GMT -8
I've never done SAR, so wonder what training is involved that would put you at a higher level of liability risk? I am no lawyer but I would think that anytime you assume the mantle of group leader you become liable if something goes wrong. If you can't prove that you followed best practice you would be negligent and lose the case against you. So no training involved to assume liability but it is needed in defending if it comes to that.
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reuben
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Post by reuben on Jan 27, 2017 3:07:20 GMT -8
I don't know if you can count on satellite messengers for an emergency. They are lower power than PLB's and therefore need a clearer view of the sky. I don't know if they have the local beacon that let SAR home in on you. Well, overseas I rely on my inReach since it covers all but areas close to the poles. It doesn't have a local beacon. The SOS signal and your coordinates are relayed to a station in Texas (if I remember right), which then contacts a SAR team in your area. The SAR team is often coordinated with local authorities. Yes, they need a clear view of the sky, and it can take a couple of minutes for it to connect to the satellites, but a PLB won't work some places I go.
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ErnieW
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Post by ErnieW on Jan 27, 2017 9:00:20 GMT -8
Well, overseas I rely on my inReach since it covers all but areas close to the poles. It doesn't have a local beacon. The SOS signal and your coordinates are relayed to a station in Texas (if I remember right), which then contacts a SAR team in your area. The SAR team is often coordinated with local authorities. Yes, they need a clear view of the sky, and it can take a couple of minutes for it to connect to the satellites, but a PLB won't work some places I go. Unless I am misunderstanding what I read online the Inreach/Garmin/DeLorme units use the Iridium system and have full global coverage. SPOT uses Globalstar and has the no poles/some places no coverage limitation. PLB's should work everywhere but because they use both geo synchronous and low earth polar orbit satellites. One drawback if you are in an area that is only covered by low earth sats is that your signal will only get out to the sat when it orbits by then down from the sat to ground station when it passes over the station. I couldn't find how long a delay this could be. I am still working on finding out if either will work well under a dense canopy. The outgoing signal can be blocked and the GPS' in both aren't as sensitive as a dedicated GPS'. It looks like neither does that well with PLB's having a slight edge in signaling out. Forest service says their Iridium/Globalstar tests had a lot of terrain related failures (not seeing a good section of sky. Also was sat phones not sat messengers) One thing I am liking about sat messengers is that you could convey less than critical messages where there is no cell coverage like call me a tow truck because my car won't start at the trailhead. If you popped off your PLB for that you might have some people angry at you and some bills to pay. If I wanted the unit for mostly traveling alone I would favor the PLB. More likely to get through when needed serious help and couldn't move from the incident spot. If always in a group I would favor a sat messenger that was on Iridium. You could send someone from the group to a spot that does get through.
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almostthere
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Post by almostthere on Jan 27, 2017 9:10:00 GMT -8
GMRS was what I used for a while with larger groups. You have to be almost on top of each other for them to work. A physical barrier can block signal, and I found those five mile ranges were wildly overestimated. Maybe a mile or two. And the batteries die within a day, if you leave them on while hiking. We use instead the policy of stopping at every trail junction, or putting the slowest person in front and letting them pace the group at large.
I teach a backpacking class - it's my way of doing preventive SAR, teaching others safe practices and sometimes they are even interested enough to learn basic navigation skills.
I am no lawyer -- but I know a few. Civil attorneys gave me advice before I started doing any group organizing. One of them specialized in wilderness legalities.
In a court of law, if it comes about that you end up there after something bad happens in the wilderness, there's a lot of "it depends." Those waivers some groups like the Sierra Club make you sign are only part of the larger picture -- in a court that waiver is maybe 50% effective. Liability is a sticky thing. If Joe Noob takes a group of his friends out, doesn't even have basic first aid, and one of the friends has an issue that leads to his death, then friend's family sues Joe -- Joe will be able to tell the judge "we were just on a hike! He had a heart attack! What was I supposed to do?" And the judge would have to say he did the best he could, if Joe sent people back for help, and help was so far away no one could get there in time. Joe has no training and no skills. He went hiking like so many tourists do, and had bad luck. He didn't know his friend had heart issues and had not enough experience or training to understand that it might be a good idea to have a PLB or something else if someone in the group has medical issues.
If I am in Joe's place, I can't argue the same way. I have the equivalent of an EMT cert -- an 80 hour Wilderness First Responder certification. I taught navigation and also learned how to operate a search, as any of us volunteers could be the first on site and need to take point on setting up teams and getting them deployed. I would have to say, if I made the same choices as Joe, that I fully understood all the risks of wilderness travel and did not mitigate them adequately. I would have to say that I knew there was such a thing as a Personal Locator Beacon and did not bring it, and knew that I should have a clue about the friend maybe having a heart issue and being less determined to get to the peak, paid attention to him more, so when he started to look pale and hold his arm (people frequently don't talk about feeling poorly because they don't want to "hold up the group") I would have stopped and immediately determined whether he had nitro on him and if he wanted to administer it (people in distress don't think straight, particularly if there are multiple things going on, such as possibly dehydration, so they may not think about the things they have with them). I would be more at fault than Joe because I really did know better.
Organizing trips isn't a regimented thing, because I'm still only hiking with friends and social groups most of the time. But I do have things like trauma shears, disinfectants, and quick clot (that's because I am trail crew and saws increase risk of gaping, bloody wounds) on some trips, particularly week long ventures far into the backcountry with people I don't really know yet, though I always get plenty of information before we start out. But, I have also learned that the draw of the Bucket List will lead people to lie to me about their abilities or anything they think the truth will keep them from being able to do. I had a fellow vomiting all the way back to the trailhead confess to me such -- he was having severe elevation issues and we kept filtering and pouring water through him, giving him tums and trying to hydrate him. It stopped finally when he actually TOOK the tums - it turned out he had far too much coffee at breakfast and it turned his stomach right over, and then he confessed he'd been having headaches and feeling sick, but didn't want to say anything. And then he said he appreciated the opportunity to go because he hadn't been out in 30 years, when before the trip he claimed to be a 'frequent backpacker' to get on the trip in the first place. In this case, he lied -- that would have counted against him, for me, in court. I would not have taken him on a very high elevation trip ascending more than 5000 feet in a day from 7000. He was quite sore and feeling beat up. Limped back to the car.
Which is going to lead to the question of why I keep doing this. Because even though 85% of the people in the social groups only come out once or twice, and a handful per year give me stories to tell about how not to backpack, the rest of the time I get a large pool of people to go with, defraying the dreaded dropout syndrome. My fishing buddy is a doctor, SAR volunteer, and close friend - I met him through this process of hiking with social groups full of "strangers" (a stranger is only a friend you haven't got to know yet, the rest are rule outs). I have other friends who only day hike, and other friends who snow camp (very small pool for that, but six of us are going this weekend, taking a noob with us, going to be fun).
As to why I got all the training, instead of just having fun... I like helping people. I do it professionally in a very different way, and I do it on a paraprofessional basis in this way. I have foot issues that make me a liability to searches so I focus on preventive SAR -- things like this post.
There is a very good section on group leadership in Mountaineering: Freedom of the Hills, which is not about backpacking but about mountaineering - but there is plenty for the casual backpacker who cares to know more, to defray their own level of risk.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2017 10:25:32 GMT -8
There are hams that contribute their services. For fun some hams practice setting up portable repeaters. They also can set up stations that can scan FRS, GRMS and MURS in case the lost soul has one of those radios. They will also act as a manual bridge to all these systems that don't talk to each other. I still have to research whether hams can use a turned on cell phone for radio location. When they can't "see" a head station they broadcast at full power (FYI your phone on in your pack tends to do this sucking battery power) It would be extremely unusual for a radio amateur (aka "ham", which is not an acronym btw) to have equipment that would do radio direction finding on cell phone frequencies. The ones that practice radio direction finding on "hidden transmitter hunts" generally use either 2 meters or sometimes 80 meters (~3.5 MHz). If you're carrying a 2m radio, you might want to also carry a separate telescoping antenna; the small "rubber duck" antennas are very inefficient. You'll also need to have pre-programmed area repeaters in your handheld because almost all of them nowdays use PL (sub-audible tone) access codes, to prevent repeaters from being triggered by leaky cable television cables (which was a huge problem 30-40 years ago, before PL codes became commonplace). FWIW, I've been a radio amateur about 40 years, but only infrequently carry an amateur radio on my backpacking trips.
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Post by Lamebeaver on Jan 27, 2017 10:59:22 GMT -8
I am still working on finding out if either will work well under a dense canopy. I think the biggest problem is not getting a GPS lock, in which case, they know who you are, but don't know where to look. Once again, this underscores the importance of leaving a detailed itinerary behind.
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Post by swimswithtrout on Jan 27, 2017 19:44:40 GMT -8
I have day-hiked solo for probably 10,000 ++ miles in the past 50 years. I've backpacked/ snow/ice climbed solo for up 14 days, xc, with no finite itinerary other than to arrive back at my car and home by x date. I've solo/ onsighted (unroped) rock-climbs up to 5.7 on up to 7 pitch routes. I've also soloed rock-climbs up to 5.10 that I've previously done on rope. I always solo SCUBA dive, 500+ dives and counting.
I've been hit by lightening 3 times but still keep ticking.
If you can't get over all of the "What if's ?", than just lay in bed all day until you die.....
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texasbb
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Post by texasbb on Jan 27, 2017 20:12:19 GMT -8
If you can't get over all of the "What if's ?", than just lay in bed all day until you die..... Short-term vs long-term risk. The latter is usually a worse way to go.
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almostthere
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Post by almostthere on Jan 27, 2017 21:00:44 GMT -8
If I couldn't get over the what ifs?
All I do every trip is ignore the what ifs. I have more what ifs than most people have socks.
You're only safe until you're not.
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ErnieW
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Post by ErnieW on Jan 27, 2017 21:56:42 GMT -8
It would be extremely unusual for a radio amateur (aka "ham", which is not an acronym btw) to have equipment that would do radio direction finding on cell phone frequencies. The ones that practice radio direction finding on "hidden transmitter hunts" generally use either 2 meters or sometimes 80 meters (~3.5 MHz). If you're carrying a 2m radio, you might want to also carry a separate telescoping antenna; the small "rubber duck" antennas are very inefficient. You'll also need to have pre-programmed area repeaters in your handheld because almost all of them nowdays use PL (sub-audible tone) access codes, to prevent repeaters from being triggered by leaky cable television cables (which was a huge problem 30-40 years ago, before PL codes became commonplace). FWIW, I've been a radio amateur about 40 years, but only infrequently carry an amateur radio on my backpacking trips. That makes sense. Cell phones tend to be at 1900Mhz and digital. Special equipment to receive and not sure if a suitable directional antenna would be portable. I am glad an experienced ham has chimed in. Thank you. I am considered a fixed whip antenna tuned for 2m to replace the duckie that comes with the VX-6R I am considering.
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