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Post by Lamebeaver on Jan 18, 2017 12:38:04 GMT -8
On a substantial solo trip, I leave the Sheriff's office number, the name and number of the correct NFS district office, a detailed map with my intended route marked, GPS coordinates and a list of the things I have with me, and the route I plan on taking to get to the trailhead. Cars occasionally go off the road, and sometimes it takes some time for someone to notice.
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dayhiker
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Post by dayhiker on Jan 18, 2017 17:50:22 GMT -8
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ogg
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Post by ogg on Jan 18, 2017 19:01:12 GMT -8
The InReach satellite communicators allows indirect communication to searchers through the GEOS emergency service, so messages could be relayed back and forth once the SOS call is initiated. That was a one of several selling points for me when comparing it to the SPOT devices and PLBs.
Tigger brings up an interesting point about visibility. A few years ago, I had enough time on my hands to read through detailed SAR reports that were published online by a couple of very active SAR groups. One in particular that operates in a busy mountainous area often lamented the difficulty in locating subjects, even when they had a pretty good idea of their general location, due to the color of the their clothing. I can't find a link to it, so maybe the company is no longer in business, but there is/was a company that made a product that was a lightweight, 30 foot long streamer of high visibility orange plastic crepe like material that could be unrolled to attract attention. Two of the tents I use most often lately are high visibility yellow. The tents can easily be spotted from a distance when they are pitched and I figure, if able to, I can pull the tent out and wave it like a flag to signal a helicopter. Loud whistle, small air horn, flashing headlamp can all be used to signal location. How effective all that actually is, I hope to never find out and anecdotal accounts of use are rare; it seems that people prepared to be rescued don't need to be rescued as often.
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ErnieW
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Post by ErnieW on Jan 19, 2017 6:45:43 GMT -8
The question might be to ask as well, even if they can technically talk to cell phones temporarily do they have the money to have bought said equipment. In a lot of remote areas they don't have tax dollars flooding in. SAR teams to a large part are volunteers.
If I was running a guide company taking newbies into the boonies I would consider sat phones for the group leaders but for cover my ass legal reasons. As an individual I don't know if the cost, battery management and weight are worth it for something you will hopefully never have to use.
I think that the time honored ways such as leaving an itinerary with someone who knows when and what authorities to contact then sitting still if possible with a nice smoky fire and let SAR do what they know how to do is probably best. Also knowing some basic medical is essential because no matter what SAR will take time to get to you and you don't want to let the golden hour go by (not a Trump joke. Look it up if you don't know what it is)
I just recently got my FCC Technicians license. My plan is to buy a 2m/5m waterproof handheld when I can swing the $$$ then practice using repeaters. After that if conditions allow see if I could get some SAR exposure. I want to do this first so I have a radio that commonly could talk to SAR teams to be rescued but more likely to be able to participate in the search for others.
I have had several experiences with rescuing/aiding lost/injured hikers. As it was when we got them out to the trail head generally a ranger was there then the ranger radioed everyone they could go home. If I had a 2m most might have been able to go home hours earlier. Besides being at the trail head to ask other departing hikers if they have seen any trace of the lost souls they are there to catch the lost hikers. A lot of the lost if they get back to there cars get in a leave without saying anything to SAR. Kind of a bitch searching for someone that is no longer there. Also I think now most SAR charge for the rescue.
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Post by johntpenca on Jan 19, 2017 16:43:08 GMT -8
Accidents are precisely that. So "just don't get hurt" is, impractical. Ouch! I wonder how I've been able to get by this long never needing a rescue. My rescue device is my brain.
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Post by High Sierra Fan on Jan 20, 2017 4:55:59 GMT -8
Accidents are precisely that. So "just don't get hurt" is, impractical. Ouch! I wonder how I've been able to get by this long never needing a rescue. My rescue device is my brain. By just being THAT awesome obv. Lol Otoh me? After pushing a million road miles I've never needed my seatbelts yet. Still buckle up though.
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almostthere
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Post by almostthere on Jan 22, 2017 11:09:16 GMT -8
You would be in danger of a fine to get on the high band frequencies without previously becoming the kind of entity that uses that equipment. It is not for the general public -- it's for official communications only. Having participated in searches in national forest and national parks, as a volunteer searcher, I can tell you that much.
Some use HAM radios. You have to take a test to use those. They are fairly reliable, but not going to directly connect you to someone in Emergency Services.
Cell phones don't work the way you're suggesting. There aren't towers in the majority of wilderness areas and phones don't connect to each other without towers. Nor are there going to be search teams carrying around devices (if there are any they are far too expensive) that would do that kind of direct connection. Electronics fail too often to make them your ultimate failsafe -- leaving an itinerary should always be that failsafe. Electronics are inherently unreliable. Even the high band radios that the rangers and SAR use are unreliable. SAR teams often operate independently within the parameters of their assignment due to communication failure, in spite of having high altitude planes to be repeaters, during searches. We all did map trainings every month because we never relied solely on the GPS units we were given. That saved us countless hours of wasted time, when the GPS's were inconsistent with each other or just plain wrong -- again, electronics aren't going to save everyone.
Agencies such as trail crews (I belong to a couple of those) and forest service and park service use SAT phones to reduce liability in situations where there is increased risk. They are very expensive. Trail crews use saws, so extensive first aid kits and extensive wilderness first aid training, plus the SAT phone, go in the pack. Your average backpacker won't be able to justify SAT phones tho some rent them. And no SAT phone will help you if it's sitting in camp when you break the leg, or if it dies (cold nights sap batteries), or if it simply fails to work. Nor will the SPOT -- search crews will be out in spring searching for a man who went missing last fall, his last SPOT ping failed to result in locating him or any sign of him.
For personal trips, and all other trips, I carry an ACR - no subscription, no two way communication. I plan and leave my plans plus contingency plans with someone. I don't put my full weight on anything slick or wobbly. I don't hesitate to turn around if conditions worsen. I don't hesitate to stop and help others. I have carried things out for people, sent people for help (trail runners are everywhere these days) and would not hesitate to pull the PLB out for someone else. Being a WFR means once I am helping someone I am there until I can transfer the person to a higher level of care.
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ErnieW
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Post by ErnieW on Jan 22, 2017 14:24:12 GMT -8
I looked into the whole SAR radio thing. It's kind of a mess. Me being old means my info was old so I needed the update. SAR's tend to use FCC art 90 approved radios now but from what I read they will also carry 2m radios because established repeaters keep them in touch when their part 90's sometimes can't.
But not all public safety can talk to part 90 radios from what I read. Differently configured part 90 radios can't talk to each other.
There are hams that contribute their services. For fun some hams practice setting up portable repeaters. They also can set up stations that can scan FRS, GRMS and MURS in case the lost soul has one of those radios. They will also act as a manual bridge to all these systems that don't talk to each other.
I still have to research whether hams can use a turned on cell phone for radio location. When they can't "see" a head station they broadcast at full power (FYI your phone on in your pack tends to do this sucking battery power)
Finally from everything I have read a PLB would be the tool for doing the job the original poster was asking about as long as your incident doesn't happen where the PLB can't be "seen" (i.e. falling into a gully and breaking your leg alone)
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almostthere
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Post by almostthere on Jan 22, 2017 16:12:24 GMT -8
Finally from everything I have read a PLB would be the tool for doing the job the original poster was asking about as long as your incident doesn't happen where the PLB can't be "seen" (i.e. falling into a gully and breaking your leg alone) And, as long as the incident doesn't prevent use of the device at all. If you are separated from your device for whatever reason, or knocked flat out cold and don't awaken to the point of being coherent enough to trigger it, that's pretty much it, unless you surfed on over to reconn.org prior to your trip, or wrote your itinerary out, or something....
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ErnieW
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Post by ErnieW on Jan 23, 2017 8:32:18 GMT -8
Finally from everything I have read a PLB would be the tool for doing the job the original poster was asking about as long as your incident doesn't happen where the PLB can't be "seen" (i.e. falling into a gully and breaking your leg alone) And, as long as the incident doesn't prevent use of the device at all. If you are separated from your device for whatever reason, or knocked flat out cold and don't awaken to the point of being coherent enough to trigger it, that's pretty much it, unless you surfed on over to reconn.org prior to your trip, or wrote your itinerary out, or something.... For me two points here: Something can kill you no matter what. Life has no guarantees even if you are carrying cool tech. The other is don't let having something like a PLB allow you to get over confident. Don't get into trouble in the first place if it can be avoided.
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almostthere
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Post by almostthere on Jan 23, 2017 9:12:37 GMT -8
I started carrying a PLB when I started hiking with newbies specifically to teach newbies. In a court of law, someone with as much training as I have would be held to a much higher standard of care than someone who occasionally hikes and never took any training. Previously I took nothing at all electronic.
Avoiding liability when hiking and "leading" groups is a tricky subject. If you routinely hike with groups and "lead" them, I recommend speaking to a civil attorney or two. It's quite enlightening.
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ogg
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Post by ogg on Jan 23, 2017 18:34:33 GMT -8
The discussion about radios got me to thinking...if someone were carrying a SPOT or InReach satellite messaging device and also a GMRS radio, after initiating an SOS, they could relay a message to SAR that they were carrying a GMRS radio and what channel they would be monitoring. My daughter and I carried GMRS radios on our last backpacking trip together and we've also used them on family car camping trips. I think I'll keep this in mind if I ever have to use the SOS feature on my InReach.
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ErnieW
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Post by ErnieW on Jan 23, 2017 19:04:38 GMT -8
GMRS does require an FCC license. I think it is $65 with no test and includes family members communicating with the holder.
Make sure you know how to turn off any privacy codes like the Talkabouts have. They could stop you from hearing help responding to you.
I don't know if you can count on satellite messengers for an emergency. They are lower power than PLB's and therefore need a clearer view of the sky. I don't know if they have the local beacon that let SAR home in on you.
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crick
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Post by crick on Jan 25, 2017 21:39:37 GMT -8
PLB is the way to go. Much more reliable when compared to the satellite communicator. Sat Communicators are just too costly with the subscription plan and all. Here is a nice post on the matter However, with Garmin acquiring DeLorme, I am hoping that the the satellite messenger market will see some disruption and new devices coming in the market.
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Post by johntpenca on Jan 26, 2017 15:09:18 GMT -8
I started carrying a PLB when I started hiking with newbies specifically to teach newbies. In a court of law, someone with as much training as I have would be held to a much higher standard of care than someone who occasionally hikes and never took any training. Previously I took nothing at all electronic. Avoiding liability when hiking and "leading" groups is a tricky subject. If you routinely hike with groups and "lead" them, I recommend speaking to a civil attorney or two. It's quite enlightening Interesting post. Just out of curiosity, what propelled you to leading groups of noobs? How big were/are these groups? I've only hiked solo or with a few known friends. What is your training? I'm not attacking you, just curious. I've never done SAR, so wonder what training is involved that would put you at a higher level of liability risk?
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