rebeccad
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Post by rebeccad on Jul 26, 2016 20:48:05 GMT -8
I'm looking for a little enlightenment as we are looking at replacing one or both of our sleeping pads. I know a bit more insulation would be helpful (though it's always a compromise with weight), but my question about R Value is: how much does it take before it matters? In other words, is there really a difference between the NeoAir Women's at 3.9 and the Xlite at 3.2? We'd be looking at a 4 oz difference as well, as the Xlite appears to be the only UL pad still available in a "short", which is all we want.
Opinions? Significant or not?
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zeke
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Post by zeke on Jul 27, 2016 4:00:06 GMT -8
From Therm-a-rest themselves:"Another useful bit of knowledge is that you can generally draw the line between three-season and winter mattresses at an approximate R-value of 3.0. We also think that if a mattress is to supply any reliable amount of warmth, it should have an R-value of at least 1.5. Any less and you could basically be sleeping on a heat sink, which can continually drain warmth from your body, making for a pretty grim night. And finally, one of the more useful ways to use R-value is to use it when building your sleep system. Let’s say you’re going into the High Sierra in September. You’ll be expecting brisk nights, but there’s real potential for downright frigid ones too. Do you bring the giant 0F winter sleeping bag to be safe, or your three-season bag that’s rated closer to 15F degrees, and risk a few cold nights? Most people will make a decision based on bag warmth alone, but by factoring in mattress warmth, you suddenly have more options for making your sleeping bag perform better on the margins of its comfort rating. For instance, on a Regular NeoAir® XLite® (R-value:3.8, Weight: 12 oz.), you should get the comfort your bag is rated for. However, jump up to NeoAir® XTherm™ (R-value: 5.7, Weight: 15 oz.) and you could get by on those coldest nights with a greater comfort margin for only an extra 3 ounces – a lot better than jumping to a winter bag that could add up to a pound of extra weight." IMO, if they are using 3.0 as their own base line for true Winter conditions, then I would think 3.2 would be fine for what you plan to use it for. However, I cannot find anything that will tell me just how that 3.9 vs 3.2 would affect sleep at 20°. I sleep very warm. I understand others might not.
Unisex short at 47 inches, 8 oz and R3.2 vs women's at 66 ", 12 oz and R 3.9 That + $30 is the entire difference. Saving $30 might be the cheapest UL thing ever. Most times, to save 4 oz, it would cost at least $50, not saving any $ at all.
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Post by tipiwalter on Jul 27, 2016 4:12:00 GMT -8
I've been using Thermy pads since 1980 and I guess I've been thru about 35 of them all told. When I lived in my Tipi for 21 years all I ever used was a series of Camp Rests (now BaseCamps), the Ultralight model, the Standards and Classics---and for backpacking the Prolites and 40th Anniversary Backpacker models and Trekker and Explorer or whatever else; and even a NeoAir all season (and the Solar ccf at 3.5R).
I don't really have a summer pad vs a winter pad except to bring the Solar ccf pad in tandem with my current fave, a Trail Pro large at 4R. To answer your question, it all comes down to Comfort and Warmth. If you can achieve these two with a sleeping pad on a backpacking trip then you solved your problems.
You talk about R values but make no mention of what conditions your pads will be used. Winter at -10F? Summer with 80F nights?
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zeke
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Post by zeke on Jul 27, 2016 4:18:38 GMT -8
She hikes in the Sierras, sometimes in the Fall where temps can, and do, drop below freezing. I am not sure if her recent trip in the Andes was with her own gear, or provided by the guides.
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toejam
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Post by toejam on Jul 27, 2016 4:28:23 GMT -8
I've spent some of my coldest nights camping on my Xlite and been in snow on Mt Shasta & Mt. Rainier. I never felt like I was losing heat through the pad. It's not as warm as my newer Xtherm, which reflects body heat better, but it's not cold either.
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jazzmom
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Post by jazzmom on Jul 27, 2016 4:31:54 GMT -8
So, R-values are like sleeping bag ratings before EN standards. Each manufacturer can choose their own testing method. Some of the gear nerds over at BPL have done independent testing to normalize the manufacturer ratings. Interestingly enough, with their method, the Thermarest pads test higher than their spec'ed values, while the Big Agnes pads generally come out lower. It's also been pointed out that there are other "real world" physical factors, like convection heat loss, rate of inflation, etc., that will change the effective R-value of any given pad. That implies, at least to me, that "fit" does matter, at least to some extent. The more pad surface you leave exposed, the greater potential for convection loss. So, a small woman sleeping on a guy-dimensioned pad, who moves a lot in her sleep, may be lowering the R-value of her pad. May also explain why the Thermarest pads rated higher using "real world" methods, because they incorporate that baffled interior design. My personal opinion is that the difference between 3.9 and 3.2 will be mostly psychological. You sleep on a higher-rated pad and think you're warmer... and if you're cold, you attribute it to something else, like being dehydrated or hungry or whatever. Also, for a small R-value difference, I think basic comfort is much more of a factor; if you're not sleeping well, you're much more likely to wake up and feel cold. I know that I sleep the best on my Prolite Plus and think that it's my warmest pad... shocked when I read the BPL test results where they found the original Neoair (which I really disliked) to be warmer. FWIW, Sea to Summit pads also come in a "short" (66") version. They're heavier than the Thermarests for the same R-values, so may not be of any interest to you. I just happen to find their design more comfortable. This is one of the BPL threads on the subject, if you're interested. There's a link in there for the big excel sheet of results. backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/68163/
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Post by tipiwalter on Jul 27, 2016 5:02:45 GMT -8
The BPL folks like to overthink gear---a better option is to grab what you got and throw it on the ground in the backyard tonight and see how it works. Repeat this proccedure in the winter months. A lot can be learned by backyard camping, especially in the winter. I too am not a fan of the NeoAirs in all configurations as I have a pet peeve: When I am in my tent I spend alot of time sitting up on my bony butt atop whatever pad I am using and DO NOT LIKE to have my butt hit the ground thru the pad. The NeoAirs tend to not be firm enough even when blown full to offer "sitting up support" vs sleeping support. They are great when supine if you like the horizontal baffle system. (Btw, Exped downmats also have this firmness problem when sitting). the Prolite Plus is a very nice 3 season stand alone pad (the 40th Anniversary now discontinued was an even better version of the Prolite Plus) and it's really all a person needs for 3+ season backpacking. Here's some pics of my past configurations--- This is how it all began---a buddy of mine is holding his Dad's old 1980 Thermarest Standard with the old metal valve. This is the pad we all started with---and retailed for $29 back in the day (or less). For several years this was my favorite Thermarest of all but like idiots they discontinued making it. It was thick and warm and light and comfy. But it does have a tendency to delaminate. All Thermarest inflatables have this tendency. This ugly bubble bladder occurred on a backpacking trip but luckily I had the Solar ccf with me. This ain't my first rodeo with a blown Thermarest. A good winter setup for minus zero is to take two inflatables, in this case the Prolite Plus on left with the Prolite and sandwich them together for some high R numbers. If one dies on your trip you always have the second. You can keep them together with elastic bands. Are Thermarest pads bear proof? No they are not.
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mk
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Post by mk on Jul 27, 2016 5:26:43 GMT -8
You can keep them together with elastic bands. yep - another idea learned from the bp forum ... I used a ccf under my neo-trekker for the first time last month in Colorado. And for the first time ever, I was warm enough sleeping. And while the two pads didn't slip around a lot, the elastic bands would have been a great add. I'm putting those in my kit next time for sure!
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Post by tipiwalter on Jul 27, 2016 5:42:47 GMT -8
I bought the elastic at walmart and measured, cut and sewn together. Very easy.
Thru repeated tests in frigid conditions I have found it warmer to put the inflatable UNDER the ccf, especially the solar pad as it has a reflective layer on top which probably needs to be against the body. So now in winter when I hit 0F in camp I augment my 4R pad with the Solar on top. Noticeably warmer.
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zeke
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Post by zeke on Jul 27, 2016 5:43:59 GMT -8
Or, you can add a couple of silicon dots to the bottom of whichever mat you intend on placing on top. Lighter, maybe not cheaper, depending on whether you are making your own loops or buying them.
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amaruq
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Post by amaruq on Jul 27, 2016 7:17:03 GMT -8
And here I was always told the 3-season and winter division was closer to R5.
I always carry my SOLite CCF with my XLite pad. It's not really necessary to double up the insulation in the 3-seasons (even in Canada), but it's more of a mental protection against worrying about the ills that can befall an inflatable pad.
I don't give much thought to fractions of an R-value, typically rounding them to the nearest integer.
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rebeccad
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Post by rebeccad on Jul 27, 2016 7:21:39 GMT -8
You talk about R values but make no mention of what conditions your pads will be used. Winter at -10F? Summer with 80F nights? That's because I just want to understand if there is a significant difference between the values. I can make the decision from there. A lot can be learned by backyard camping, especially in the winter. My backyard is 55 deg. Summer or winter I have to haul the gear to the mountains to test it. (My yard is also about the size of a postage stamp and rather urban. I wouldn't care to sleep out there). Thanks, everyone, for the input. To clarify, I've been sleeping on the original NeoAir for several years (we can't figure out how many). I've been cold a time or two, when temps dropped into the low 20s or teens (I use a 32-deg. bag, which obviously has a lot to do with it), and have learned to add a bit of insulation and wear more clothes. We aren't talking winter camping, just high mountains. I admit that when the ground is covered in snow, I'm more likely to go find a hut, if I'm out at all. If I do go in for winter stuff, I'll either get another pad or layer them up (I still have the blue foam from my childhood kicking around...I slept on that into my 20s. Ever since, it's been a steady escalation in padding to keep my hips from hurting). Zeke pretty much pegged it: I'm weight-watching, and also a bit cheap, so if I get effectively the same warmth for 4 oz less and $30 savings, I'm happy. If that 4 oz and $30 is actually a big difference in comfort when the temps drop, allowing me to use my light bag, then I'm happy to spend it and carry it. From Zeke's analysis, it's probably a trivial difference and I'll stick with the short, light, and cheaper pad. I am not sure if her recent trip in the Andes was with her own gear, or provided by the guides. Zeke, in Peru we used our NeoAir pads for extra cushion on top of the foam pads the packers supplied Very comfy!
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Post by High Sierra Fan on Jul 27, 2016 8:06:00 GMT -8
A table I've recently seen had the R scale coordinating linearly with 1 unit equaling a ten degrees Fahrenheit increment from R1 to R 7. .
So a jump from a measured 3.2 to a 3.9 would mean a 7 degree Fahrenheit increase in temperature resistance. Now 7 degrees is a significant difference, I'm thinking how 77 feels versus 70, how that would be for an individual? Unsure. But the two pads are different.
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Post by tipiwalter on Jul 27, 2016 8:11:34 GMT -8
And here I was always told the 3-season and winter division was closer to R5. Where on this thread was it mentioned it wasn't? A 3.5R or 4R pad works great in cold at 0F when supplemented with a ccf pad. My Solar with my Trail Pro comes to 7.5R---perfect. Here's another tip---When you're out on a long winter trip without resupply (no town visits) and it's consistently 0F at night, you can't afford to have an inflatable Pad die because fixing such a pad in the field is often impossible. And you can't rightly sleep on the rock hard frozen ground for the next 15 days. Solution? ** Set up an emergency Thermarest cache somewhere in the area you are backpacking and circle back if necessary. ** Leave a spare pad in your car at the trailhead and circle back etc. ** Don't use any type of inflatable. ** Carry a tiny spare pad with you at all times and have it as an extreme emergency backup. See pic--- I carry this little pad at all times just in case I have a pad emergency. It's not much R-wise but coupled with my Solar ccf pad it'll provide comfort and keep me warmish (with the solar) at around 4R. I'll survive at 0F. Here's the Always-carried NeoAir. There's always an empty spot in my 7000 cu in pack for this item. Regarding my first point of stashing an emergency Thermy cache somewhere, well, here's proof. I was out on a 19 day February trip into the Snowbird wilderness in NC (cold!) and on my first night my dang-blasted Exped Downmat delaminated and blew a baffle tube. Cursed Exped in loud oaths. I had to detour 12 miles to a buried cache just to get thru the trip. Sucked. It's a fairly common occurrence with Expeds. The company was nice enough as once they saw this pic they sent me a brand new pad for free. Didn't help much in the field though.
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tomas
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Post by tomas on Jul 27, 2016 9:12:57 GMT -8
I was out on a 19 day February trip into the Snowbird wilderness in NC (cold!) and on my first night my dang-blasted Exped Downmat delaminated and blew a baffle tube. Cursed Exped in loud oaths. I had to detour 12 miles to a buried cache just to get thru the trip. Sucked. It's a fairly common occurrence with Expeds. The company was nice enough as once they saw this pic they sent me a brand new pad for free. Didn't help much in the field though. I'd be calling the company as well. Looking at the picture, however, I can't tell if it was compromised to the point of not being usable, it looks inflated in the picture. What am I missing?
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