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Post by Coolkat on May 23, 2023 7:07:07 GMT -8
I admittedly have been using one of the products mentioned in the article below. A few years ago I had worn out my REI Quarter Dome T2 tent. It was my 2nd tent ever purchased for purpose of backpacking. At the time it served me well. Under 5lbs, 2 person (I don't do 1p tents) and decent price. Go forward about 8 years (maybe more) and it was showing signs of wear with holes in the screen and I had advanced enough in skill knowledge that I was looking for something lighter but I didn't have the resources to spend $400+ on a tent. I purchased a Contrail from Henry Shires but I hated the front entry and it would mist when big heavy rain drops hit so I kept looking. People were just starting to take notice of the Lan Shan II and I took a chance and ordered it off of AliExpress. $130 and 2 weeks later it arrived and I've been using it now for about 5 years without any issues. Weighing in at almost exactly 2.5lbs it's been to the La Garita Wilderness in CO to wilds of Upper Michigan. I've spent many a rain filled filled afternoons and nights in it. Windstorms in Virginia and in Colorado. So far no failures until last season where one vestibule's zipper is stuck (I'll be addressing that issue this week hopefully). I'm curious as to peoples thoughts about this kind of gear. Would you never buy it base on principle(s)? Maybe you don't care so long as it gets people outside? Or maybe at $130 you'd naturally think it can't be good and just ignore it? www.backpacker.com/gear/chinese-ultralight-backpacking-gear/ |
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driftwoody
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Post by driftwoody on May 23, 2023 8:53:58 GMT -8
Thanks for the article. 3F looks like a good option for those on a tight budget.
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jazzmom
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Post by jazzmom on May 23, 2023 16:55:35 GMT -8
Would you never buy it base on principle(s)? If I insisted on not buying anything made in China, I would be naked and homeless. Besides I'm not quite sure what principles I would be protecting. I like Fire Maple stuff. I have one of their stoves, a kettle and a cookware set for car camping. I saw them in outdoor gear shops in China, right next to the American/Japanese brands. Just like seeing REI brand items... |
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rebeccad
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Post by rebeccad on May 23, 2023 17:53:41 GMT -8
Would you never buy it base on principle(s)? If I insisted on not buying anything made in China, I would be naked and homeless. Besides I'm not quite sure what principles I would be protecting. I like Fire Maple stuff. I have one of their stoves, a kettle and a cookware set for car camping. I saw them in outdoor gear shops in China, right next to the American/Japanese brands. Just like seeing REI brand items... I think you first tipped me off to the FireMaple stoves, and I got one when I thought it was just for one season, when fire hazard closed some areas to alky stoves. In the end, I bet it did 100 nights before I gave in last fall and replaced it with a slightly heavier and much more expensive (but also more efficient) stove. I will note that when I went to look at buying another $15 Fire Maple, they were running a lot closer to the cost of the US brands. |
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Post by Coolkat on May 24, 2023 4:38:14 GMT -8
Interesting, I didn't even know this existed until now. I have the Jetboil stash (7oz) and I love it but I will keep this brand in mind when I talk with people who are getting interested but are on a budget also. If I insisted on not buying anything made in China, I would be naked and homeless. Besides I'm not quite sure what principles I would be protecting. Ok so maybe not a principle so much but I know that there are people who will pay the extra to buy from cottage US companies. However, I think even Henry Shires has moved some of his manufacturing to China (don't quote that, just seems I read/heard that somewhere). |
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zeke
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Post by zeke on May 24, 2023 4:49:54 GMT -8
However, I think even Henry Shires has moved some of his manufacturing to China All of the DCF tarptents have always been made in China. When the pandemic closed so many places in the US, Shires moved some more of the manufacturing to China. Tarptents are no longer a cottage industry, but a large business. |
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jazzmom
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Post by jazzmom on May 24, 2023 10:01:08 GMT -8
Ok so maybe not a principle so much but I know that there are people who will pay the extra to buy from cottage US companies. Yes, and I'm actually one of those people, though not because I won't buy from Chinese companies but because I like the way cottage companies operate. But I don't think being a cottage company precludes it from using Chinese factories or that only American cottage companies are "legitimate". |
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driftwoody
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Post by driftwoody on May 24, 2023 10:56:36 GMT -8
Aside from product quality and good customer service, I consider "legitimate" in this context to be fair labor practices and ethics, including environmental impact.
The offshoring of US manufacturing had a lot to do with a playing field that was far from level in those regards.
The question is how much more are you willing to pay to salve your conscience in such matters?
A similar matter is online purchases vs brick & mortar stores. I place some value in the latter for having the products for on hand evaluation, personal service, and a great return policy.
But I still buy online if the price is steeply discounted.
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Post by High Sierra Fan on May 26, 2023 22:46:25 GMT -8
Crap can be specified by anyone to be crapped out anywhere. Quality of the goods is the metric not some label. Enormous amounts of “Made in U. S. A. “ is straight up garbage. Add in the inevitably higher wages and operational costs and anything made in U. S. A. especially cheap, and there’s plenty, has to be skimping on material quality, design expenses snd quality control to lower costs, probably on top of illegal toxic waste dumping and uncontrolled pollution emissions to cut costs. The knee jerk reaction to that label by some of the “where is it made?” crowd is beyond naive bordering on fantasy. Or straight up racism.
And “cottage” In the textile industry? That’s too often code for “sweatshop exploiting undocumented workers in conditions not far removed from enslavement”. And that “Made in U. S. A. “ premium? Straight into the owners bank account.
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Post by thedude on May 27, 2023 5:32:42 GMT -8
I have some cams from a Chinese company called Kailas and they are high quality. That would be the main consideration for me, there is a lot of stuff that comes from China - and loads of other counties for that matter - that is cheap in more ways than one. I am a " buy quality and cry once" kind of shopper and would prefer to buy gear that is going to last rather than buy cheap and replace it every year or two.
So long as the gear is quality, durable and reliable, I am fine. Disposable crap is a big part of what is damaging our planet, but I don't blame that on China alone. If there was no market for disposable garbage it wouldn't exist.
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driftwoody
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Post by driftwoody on May 27, 2023 6:11:18 GMT -8
Crap can be specified by anyone to be crapped out anywhere. Quality of the goods is the metric not some label. Enormous amounts of “Made in U. S. A. “ is straight up garbage. Add in the inevitably higher wages and operational costs and anything made in U. S. A. especially cheap, and there’s plenty, has to be skimping on material quality, design expenses snd quality control to lower costs, probably on top of illegal toxic waste dumping and uncontrolled pollution emissions to cut costs. The knee jerk reaction to that label by some of the “where is it made?” crowd is beyond naive bordering on fantasy. Or straight up racism. And “cottage” In the textile industry? That’s too often code for “sweatshop exploiting undocumented workers in conditions not far removed from enslavement”. And that “Made in U. S. A. “ premium? Straight into the owners bank account. All other things being equal (though things seldom if ever are) I think it's been established the product will cost more to manufacture in the USA than in China. Making a profit on a roughly equal product would require charging a higher price, would it not? I don't doubt some US manufacturers jack up their prices by marketing "premier" brands (Mrs. Driftwoody recently told me about small purses that cost $thousands) but if fourm members here are representative of the backpacking community at large, price gouging will increasingly be a losing business practice as foreign competitors offer quality gear at much lower cost. |
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jazzmom
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Post by jazzmom on May 27, 2023 8:33:05 GMT -8
And “cottage” In the textile industry? That’s too often code for “sweatshop exploiting undocumented workers in conditions not far removed from enslavement”. I'm curious what evidence you have to support this. Not about there being a lot of bad players in the textile industry (which I agree with) but that "cottage" is "often code" for them. I guess, in my experience, cottage companies that I've dealt with for backpacking gear are mostly sewing/knitting their products in their homes/garages and, when their success outgrows that, in a local space where the owner is present and part of the daily workforce. In fact, I think that's actually the definition of being a "cottage" operation. Once the production is happening outside of the owner's purview, I don't think it qualifies as a cottage company anymore. That said, I'm sure a lot of the raw materials used by these cottage companies are produced in questionable environments. We've completely lost any control over that... I'm guessing that many wonderful farm-to-table restaurants in this country use bulk peeled garlic that's purported to be processed by Chinese prisoners. |
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Post by High Sierra Fan on May 27, 2023 19:21:09 GMT -8
Cottage simply means small, not some magic code for higher morals. And small in textiles are the least competitive players as in any business. So that’s where you’ve got the small sweatshops. As to “evidence “ the labor code violations list is endless across the country. Eyes open: no matter what cute label some brand takes on via paid for online reviews Textiles and Sewing is a classic female, low wage, often immigrant or undocumented position that’s been exploited by owners forever. My aunts worked piecework, jobs for women being limited. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_fireThe point being reading past a label is necessary to see the facts whether it’s a “made in U. S. A. “, “made in China” or “cottage” in an internet review, recommendation or FB ad. And “farm to table” are as likely to be engaging in child labor, wage theft and general employment violations as any other small food service operation operating under the tremendous pressure of the food service industry. Hardly needing to reach out to xenophobic stereotypes of “Chinese”… |
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zeke
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Post by zeke on May 28, 2023 4:00:20 GMT -8
High Sierra Fan I think you are painting with a broad brush. Darn Tough socks, UGQ, Enlightened Equipment, WarBonnet hammocks, Arrowhead Equipment, Dutchware, Jacks R Better, 2QZQ, and many other cottage shops that we patronize have yet to ship any of their jobs out of the US, and have a clean record with the labor code.
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ErnieW
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Post by ErnieW on May 28, 2023 6:34:35 GMT -8
I feel if I can vote with my dollars for US produced I like to. I have concerns about the stability of the US-China relationship. Some production base here in the US is desirable and $$$ are needed to do that.
If China invades Taiwan where will we buy our tents from then? (hopefully that is not too TPA)
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