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Post by High Sierra Fan on Jun 22, 2023 12:25:56 GMT -8
OceanGate had requested the private ROV that located the debris aid in the search. “Cape Cod-based company may have found the debris field
By Maham Javaid
The “primary” remotely operated vehicle (ROV) involved in the search and rescue team looking for the missing Titan is the PRS Odysseus 6K, said Pelagic Research Services, a Cape Cod-based ocean services company that owns the ROV.
A spokesperson for the company told CNN that its ROV found the debris field. In a “clarification statement,” the company said that the ROV was deployed early Thursday morning and has been scanning the seafloor in the rescue area continuously.
The company said that it has been part of the search effort since Monday when OceanGate first contacted it for help.
According to Sky News, PRS deleted an earlier statement of its website and social media.” www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/06/22/titanic-sub-missing-titan-update/A very sad outcome.
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BigLoad
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Post by BigLoad on Jun 22, 2023 12:43:21 GMT -8
I've thought since the beginning that the OceanGate parent vessel should have its own sonar and ROV adequate for following up on any mishap. Not necessarily rescue capability, but at least detection and localization.
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Post by High Sierra Fan on Jun 22, 2023 13:07:57 GMT -8
I've thought since the beginning that the OceanGate parent vessel should have its own sonar and ROV adequate for following up on any mishap. Not necessarily rescue capability, but at least detection and localization. Even simply as usually an addition to the experience. Like the Newport California coast boat tours that for their whale watching include drones for absolutely incredible scenes like this one. I’ve been in a lot of coastal watching trips back in the day; never had views like this: even when Greys decided it’d be fun to come up from astern of my Boston Whaler and pass straight underneath stern to bow. Pro tip? A sixteen foot boat is actually quite tiny at times… www.facebook.com/reel/1199665180710402?fs=e&s=TIeQ9V&mibextid=S2eJsgRemote just offer an added dimension as well as that bit of backup. Granted this location was close enough deployment wasn’t that delayed (and the delay sadly was irrelevant to the outcome) but still.
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reuben
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Post by reuben on Jun 22, 2023 13:14:42 GMT -8
I've thought since the beginning that the OceanGate parent vessel should have its own sonar and ROV adequate for following up on any mishap. Not necessarily rescue capability, but at least detection and localization. Given the apparent catastrophic implosion an ROV would have only saved time identifying the location, but I agree with your general point. In a slower degradation the occupants may have been saved. Sonar? Given the reflections and refractions due to non-uniform changes in density and salinity, how accurate would it be? It strikes me as similar to HF signals bouncing off layers of the atmosphere in largely unpredictable ways.
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Post by High Sierra Fan on Jun 22, 2023 13:17:16 GMT -8
^maybe not active sonar^ but rather passive: listening close in for either an emergency pinger or the passengers signaling by banging on the hull. So an autonomous underwater drone type doing a search pattern listening for anomalies.
Researchers have some amazing tools in that vein. I’d read about people interested in arctic thermal vents who deployed a group of underwater drones who could sense the sulfur products from the vent water and adjust the group’s search pattern to home in on the chemical source. Amazing stuff.
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ErnieW
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Post by ErnieW on Jun 22, 2023 13:21:50 GMT -8
OceanGate was kind of doing things on the cheap. I believe the support vessel is sub contracted out. Active sonar that could go that deep and a ROV were probably well beyond their budget. The should have a least had the ability to hear the implosion though.
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BigLoad
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Post by BigLoad on Jun 22, 2023 13:28:35 GMT -8
I've thought since the beginning that the OceanGate parent vessel should have its own sonar and ROV adequate for following up on any mishap. Not necessarily rescue capability, but at least detection and localization. Given the apparent catastrophic implosion an ROV would have only saved time identifying the location, but I agree with your general point. In a slower degradation the occupants may have been saved. Sonar? Given the reflections and refractions due to non-uniform changes in density and salinity, how accurate would it be? It strikes me as similar to HF signals bouncing off layers of the atmosphere in largely unpredictable ways. I would have active sonar on the ROV, if not on the parent ship. Passive sonar would suffer more than active from those impairments in terms of detection threshold. Localization is also easier with active because you can change your vantage point and stimulate an echo whenever its convenient, and sonar from the ROV will be less impacted by propagation phenomena because will be fairly close to start with.
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Post by swmtnbackpacker on Jun 22, 2023 15:35:47 GMT -8
Just to preface the vessel (now confirmed gone) was a carbon fiber submarine with titanium frame, but a non-traditional design that many ship designers had an issue with according to everything I’ve read on its background. In fact one employee sued over safety … www.cbsnews.com/news/titanic-submarine-oceangate-hull-safety-lawsuit/Coast Guard says they've found the debris field of the sub, "consistent with the catastrophic loss of the pressure chamber". The actual implosion is in milliseconds so it was at least very fast. Material scientists say carbon fails like that when there are microscopic imperfections … www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-65994181… and at those depths (10,000 ft = 6000 psi at all points and they were near 13,000 ft), it probably magnified any small problem making itself bigger. Still they got a number of trips out of it. Again the design was such that a lot of professionals in the field gave out all sorts of cautions, but the CEO threw caution to the wind .. I've thought since the beginning that the OceanGate parent vessel should have its own sonar and ROV adequate for following up on any mishap. Not necessarily rescue capability, but at least detection and localization. The problem was the submersibles design itself. Of course at those depths, submarine occupants don’t want any design to go wrong. The CEO was (past tense) very flippant about safety. Still some sort of tracker and maybe readings (don’t think a “black box” would survive a submarine implosion at those depths) may have helped solve the puzzle much quicker.
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ErnieW
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Post by ErnieW on Jun 22, 2023 15:41:33 GMT -8
If they found the submersible intact on the ocean floor but with all of them dead from running out of O2 you might make a case for some system to find them quicker. As it is they found them quick enough.
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ErnieW
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Post by ErnieW on Jun 22, 2023 15:46:56 GMT -8
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BigLoad
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Post by BigLoad on Jun 22, 2023 15:48:31 GMT -8
I've thought since the beginning that the OceanGate parent vessel should have its own sonar and ROV adequate for following up on any mishap. Not necessarily rescue capability, but at least detection and localization. The problem was the submersibles design itself. Of course at those depths, submarine occupants don’t want any design to go wrong. The CEO was (past tense) very flippant about safety. Still some sort of tracker and maybe readings (don’t think a “black box” would survive a submarine implosion at those depths) may have helped solve the puzzle much quicker.
Realistically, the purpose of the ROV and sonar are mainly to get quickly to reality about the situation, before tens of millions of dollars go down the drain because the whole world will go all-in on a "maybe".
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BigLoad
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Post by BigLoad on Jun 22, 2023 15:52:44 GMT -8
I almost posted earlier that I was willing to bet every penny I had that the Navy would later announce the precise moment of failure.
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Travis
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Post by Travis on Jun 22, 2023 19:49:50 GMT -8
James Cameron, with his ample experience in deep-sea exploration, along with listening in on chatter from the "deep-submergence community," has some interesting theories about what happened. He says the carbon-fiber, titanium composite that the sub was made of was designed for the internal pressures of space exploration. That is where the composite's strengths are, but it is poorly adapted to withstand the external pressures of deep sea.
He further suggests that among the last communications of the sub with the ship was that the sub had reached a depth of 200 meters (656 feet) from the sea floor when it heard sounds of "de-lamination" of the composite material. At that, the sub had "dropped its weights" to immediately begin ascent back to the ship. Then it imploded.
I take it all with a grain of salt, but it is an interesting perspective.
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ErnieW
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Post by ErnieW on Jun 23, 2023 3:46:30 GMT -8
Echoing what BigLoad said earlier Cameron said they always used a two sub system for safety. One could help the other if something happened.
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Post by Sleeping Bag Man! on Jun 23, 2023 6:23:11 GMT -8
I almost posted earlier that I was willing to bet every penny I had that the Navy would later announce the precise moment of failure. I read that the Navy said to the civilian searchers, essentially, "you didn't hear this from us, but you might want to search these particular coordinates for seafloor debris...wink wink"So this whole panicked search & rescue scramble and media fiasco was unnecessary, but we had to go through the motions of pretending to guard the most un-secret of secrets.......that the Navy can pinpoint a dolphin fart within 6 feet, anywhere on the globe, and tell you what it had for breakfast. Sometimes the absurdity of modern times is too much.
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