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Post by bobcat1 on Aug 27, 2022 7:22:22 GMT -8
Sea kayaks and canoes, where portaging is not involved, can really haul gear. But having recently returned from the Boundary Waters and a week-long canoe trip with dozens of portages, I prefer lighter-weight cooking gear!
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rebeccad
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Writing like a maniac
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Post by rebeccad on Aug 27, 2022 8:54:17 GMT -8
I went on an outfitted and guided group kayak trip to the Apostle Islands, and we carried the 5-# refillable propane cylinders and 2-burner stoves in our huge double kayaks. Definitely possible for car camping. But not a solution for backpackers, cyclists or most self-propelled canoeists or kayakers. I don’t use propane when backpacking in any case. This isn’t about iso-butane cans, so not an issue for us. I do have the tools both for refilling and recycling the I-B cans, mostly so I can consolidate fuel and not have a bunch of nearly-empty cans around. This whole issue was why I shifted to alcohol for several years, but fire danger in the West has rendered that a poor solution.
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Post by bobcat1 on Aug 27, 2022 17:30:54 GMT -8
Maybe we need a technology innovation, or a regulatory adjustment, so either a new type of alcohol burner has a cut-off valve so it meets regs as an option for backpacking allowed in arid and fire-prone areas, or an adjustment to regulations so today’s technology of single-charge open-cup alcohol burners without fuel valves are allowed. Alcohol as a fuel can come from renewable resources and is not fossil-fuel based.
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ErnieW
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Post by ErnieW on Aug 28, 2022 7:08:43 GMT -8
I refill my small MSR cans from big ones. The small one I have refilled like ten times now has some rust on the bottom rim. I know these aren't made to be refilled but it is too efficient to not do so. So I was wondering what would happen if that bottom rim failed while using the stove. It would be pretty disastrous. I can see where litigation adverse companies would err on the side of caution and just say no refilling. It would be interesting to know what the cans can actually take refill-wise.
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swiftdream
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the Great Southwest Unbound
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Post by swiftdream on Aug 28, 2022 10:11:22 GMT -8
I considered buying a Lindal valve to use my two remote canister backpacking stoves with the green Colman propane canisters while car camping but ultimately decided against after weighing the dangers. I value my wilderness and the safety of my companion more than anything so the risks just weren’t worth it. The one pound isopro canisters do cost more than the one pound green propane but I’ll just take one for the team when paying a bit more. For less stationary camps my choice is the half pound isopro but we have been experimenting more with ethanol, a renewable green source of energy, and how to make it as safe as possible. If there is a fire ban then it’s isopro only at this time.
I would like to see the industry figure out some more environmental friendly solutions that are safer and high performance with full functionality for quick boils for an expedient beverage or long, slower cooking that would satisfy fire ban safety.
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Post by High Sierra Fan on Aug 28, 2022 10:29:31 GMT -8
For car camping the solution already exists: electric stoves. There are 12 v. versions and for the increasing number of vehicles like my 2017 4Runner with a 120 v. outlet there are even more options.
Topping off an auxiliary battery (for extended overland stays where the main battery is best preserved for the vehicle) with solar power is about as green as you’ll get. And currently completely available. For the big hybrids like the Tundra or Sequoia or the all electric f150 (I actually saw an ad just now where they showed a plugged in stove in an f150 tailgate!) it’s even simpler.
And an added benefit: you can totally pack an electric stove in checked bags or carry on when flying!
ETA: for the mathematically inclined about how much power would get pulled from a vehicle battery to bring a liter of water to a boil?
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Post by High Sierra Fan on Aug 28, 2022 10:47:35 GMT -8
On the topic of car camping and environmentally friendly progress? totally ban the damn wood burning campfires!!!. Burning wood spews particulates that get in your lungs, formaldehyde for gods sake AND, possibly my favorite: the contaminant in Agent Orange, Dioxin, that is so infamous from the bad old defoliation days for causing all sorts of diseases.
Singly use camping gas canisters? I’ll take them seriously when Yosemite stops selling poison spewing wood and rips out those fire rings. Other areas get some slack but that valley is an air pollution trap. Much like Mexico City or L. A. So they need to step up.
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ErnieW
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Post by ErnieW on Aug 28, 2022 13:48:08 GMT -8
ETA: for the mathematically inclined about how much power would get pulled from a vehicle battery to bring a liter of water to a boil? This question would have to be refined some. A single burner induction stove and a pot and lid designed for an induction stove would be much different than a older heating element stove and some pot. The inductive would be more efficient. Thinking about it now it wouldn't likely need a wind screen. The energy goes into the pan directly.
But I was looking at single burner inductives recently and they draw 1000 to 1500 watts. 1200 watts at 12V would be 100 amp draw. Pretty serious current. If you know the amp hours of your battery you can then figure out how long it would last.
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Post by High Sierra Fan on Aug 28, 2022 13:51:34 GMT -8
I hadn’t thought about inductive: yes for anything involving portable power supplies efficiency is important. So out the 120 volt outlet it would be a ten amp draw? (Iirc there’s a draw limit posted for that outlet: I’ll have to check) Phoo: looks like it exceeds the allowable watts. www.to4runner.net/power_outlets_120_v_ac_-188.htmlETA It might be why I saw a stove in that f150 ad: some research pulled up that in some configurations their 120 volt system has a 2,000 watt capacity.
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texasbb
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Post by texasbb on Aug 28, 2022 13:55:18 GMT -8
I refill my small MSR cans from big ones. The small one I have refilled like ten times now has some rust on the bottom rim. I know these aren't made to be refilled but it is too efficient to not do so. I do the same, and it has reduced my waste footprint quite a bit, not to mention completely eliminating the partial-can packing problem.
So I was wondering what would happen if that bottom rim failed while using the stove. It would be pretty disastrous. I'd expect it to be pretty scary...IF it happened. My dataless speculation is that it will not happen unless the canister was defective to begin with. I toss 'em when the rust starts showing, but get lots of uses before that.
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Post by High Sierra Fan on Aug 28, 2022 13:57:49 GMT -8
I’d expect the risk of bursting would be most critical during refilling when a flawed can got tested by the increasing pressure. Due to expanding gas cooling the can during use a burst while cooking would, imho, actually be less than otherwise. Unless someone unwisely was using a full windscreen contrary to manufacturers safety instructions.
Of course having a volume of flammable gas get released in your home isn’t a good thing either. But at least the “giant fireball consuming your pricey tent and sleeping bag” isn’t very likely.
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BigLoad
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Post by BigLoad on Aug 28, 2022 14:18:33 GMT -8
ETA: for the mathematically inclined about how much power would get pulled from a vehicle battery to bring a liter of water to a boil? Let's say we're raising the water temperature from 10C to 100C. A liter of water is 1000g and it takes 4.18J to raise a gram by 1C, so 90*1000*4.18 = 376.2 kJ plus conversion loss. For more familiar units, there are 3.6kJ in a Wh, so that's 104.5Wh. From a 12V battery, that's 8.7 Ah. A typical car battery is about 50Ah, so it could boil less than 6l of water, assuming no conversion loss. That's surprisingly little. I don't see any mistakes, though.
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Post by High Sierra Fan on Aug 28, 2022 14:25:10 GMT -8
And ^this^ is probably why rv supply places sell those battery charge level meters to plug into your lighter outlet: it’s not all that hard to flatline a standard battery.
Also why I see references to AGM backup batteries for over landing.
Water is interesting stuff.
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BigLoad
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Post by BigLoad on Aug 28, 2022 14:31:05 GMT -8
Water is interesting stuff. Yeah, it sure is. Unfortunately, times have changed far fewer engineers don't study its unusual properties than in years past. (Raise your hand if you've used steam tables!) Just think, I usually boil 2l of water per day backpacking, so I could cover a five-day trip with two car batteries instead of an 8-ounce canister.
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Post by High Sierra Fan on Aug 28, 2022 14:37:04 GMT -8
Or a REALY big solar array!
Go green or stay home.
Lol
ETA The property I’ve long viewed as under appreciated is its density. Various parks and other outdoor venues casually toss about reports of their spring stream flows in thousands and tens of thousands of cfs (cubic feet per second) without obviously pointing out to the casual visitor just how many tons of force that calculates to for someone wading into the flow.
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