kenv
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Post by kenv on Apr 13, 2017 10:54:55 GMT -8
It's also a reasonably short drive to Louisville from Chicago. They could have put the crew in a nice rental and let them drive it. If that's true, the airline could have just bought bus fair for all the passengers. And FYI, crew duty time enters into the equation. That crew would have used up quite a bit of their allowable duty day during such a drive.
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desert dweller
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Post by desert dweller on Apr 13, 2017 10:56:44 GMT -8
The kicking screaming passenger screwed up big big big time by escalating it to the point that law enforcement had to get involved, and then attempting to resist. So, you're blaming the victim?
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kenv
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Post by kenv on Apr 13, 2017 11:03:02 GMT -8
Not for overbooking (which this arguably wasn't a case of), once you've boarded. Please read my previous post (and the link), three posts above yours. That article is about the legal causes for booting someone. The contract of carriage includes other causes than violation of laws by a passenger. Read the fine print of your contract. United acted within their contract requirements. That does not mean that the way they did it was not exceedingly foolish, but still within the contractual agreement
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kenv
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Post by kenv on Apr 13, 2017 11:06:05 GMT -8
So, you're blaming the victim? Once the passenger decided to escalate to this level, the "victims" were the fellow passengers, the flight crew, and the law enforcement officers who were forced to take this action.
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GaliWalker
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Post by GaliWalker on Apr 13, 2017 11:11:04 GMT -8
That article is about the legal causes for booting someone. The contract of carriage includes other causes than violation of laws by a passenger. Read the fine print of your contract. United acted within their contract requirements. That does not mean that the way they did it was not exceedingly foolish, but still within the contractual agreement So, you didn't read my link. If you had you would have seen this: United, like all airlines, has protocol in place for overbooking incidents, said Mahany. Under United’s Rule 25: Denied Boarding Compensation, the airline lays out its responsibilities in dealing with an overbooked flight, but the rule deals only with passengers who have not yet boarded the plane.
Per these rules, the company would have had to deny entry to the passenger before, not after, he boarded the plane. In order to require someone to leave the plane who is already seated, Mahany said, they would need to provide a lawful reason.
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desert dweller
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Post by desert dweller on Apr 13, 2017 11:13:39 GMT -8
the law enforcement officers They weren't law enforcement officers. They were Security officers with the Chicago Department of Aviation and not beholden to the rules for proper law enforcement practices.
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Post by hikingtiger on Apr 13, 2017 11:16:41 GMT -8
If what's true? It's a little under 5 hours to drive it. The article said it was a Sunday night flight. The 5:41pm flight gets to Louisville at 8:03pm. The 9:00pm flight arrives at 11:22pm. The last flight from Louisville to O'Hare leaves at 6:05pm, so this crew wasn't leaving until the next morning...giving them time to rest before the next day's flight. But, yes, they could have put all the passengers on the late MegaBus to arrive in Louisville at 7 the next morning. Or the crew.
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kenv
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Post by kenv on Apr 13, 2017 11:46:56 GMT -8
So, you didn't read my link. If you had you would have seen this: I read it. FWIW, I believe United violated at least the spirit of their own Rule 25, Denial of Boarding and probably also the letter of that rule. United was within their rights to deny boarding under Rule 25, but once boarded, Rule 25 no longer applied. And clearly the passenger had boarded and was seated in his assigned seat. United was marginally within their rights to boot the passenger after boarding under their Rule 21, Refusal of Transport. Once the passenger made a scene that required the plane captain to exit the cockpit to handle the disturbance, the plane captain had the authority to have the passenger forcibly removed. It was the plane captain's call. I commend United management for backing up the plane captain, but decry everything they did that put the plane captain in that position in the first place.
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Westy
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Post by Westy on Apr 13, 2017 11:57:10 GMT -8
It's safer on Delta (Doesn't Ever Leave The Airport).
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kenv
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Post by kenv on Apr 13, 2017 11:58:55 GMT -8
It's a little under 5 hours to drive it. The article said it was a Sunday night flight. The 5:41pm flight gets to Louisville at 8:03pm. The 9:00pm flight arrives at 11:22pm. The last flight from Louisville to O'Hare leaves at 6:05pm, so this crew wasn't leaving until the next morning...giving them time to rest before the next day's flight. With respect, you clearly don't understand FAA crew rest requirements. FAA requires a minimum of 10 hour rest period between duty periods. The drive would have been part of the crew's duty time, after which they must have 10 hours of crew rest time before beginning another duty period. Further, while the crew would have been "on the clock" for FAA crew duty time, they would have been "off the clock" for crew pay time. In other words, the drive would have been unpaid crew duty time and they could not start working for pay until 10 hours after they arrived. It's a lousy system in a lot of ways, but that's the way the pilot unions have negotiated it.
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kenv
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Post by kenv on Apr 13, 2017 12:09:12 GMT -8
They weren't law enforcement officers. They were Security officers with the Chicago Department of Aviation and not beholden to the rules for proper law enforcement practices. I stand corrected. Thanks for the clarification. In any event, the passenger's decision to escalate to this level and then to resist the Aviation Security Officers (who have the authority to detain and limited arrest authority) was a very bad one that turned everyone in that plane into victims.
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Hungry Jack
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Post by Hungry Jack on Apr 13, 2017 12:17:35 GMT -8
the law enforcement officers They weren't law enforcement officers. They were Security officers with the Chicago Department of Aviation and not beholden to the rules for proper law enforcement practices. They were not TSA (federal) employees? Oh boy.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2017 12:36:59 GMT -8
Rules, yes they are quite important but how a customer is publically treated is just as important as the rules.
A few weeks ago I was at a local pizza place and the seated customer who arrived before me did not get his pizza before me. In fact the patient customer waited for another 15 or 20 minutes before alerting the staff. The manager came out and deeply apologized for the error, taking upon himself all the blame for the frack up. They gave the couple back their money, gave them a pizza and opened a on the house tab for beer. Before the customer and his wife left, the pizza placed dropped 3 pizza’s to go on their table which the manager delivered with his profound apologies for the error.
When I was a bit younger and living in LA, a friend of mine and I bought same day round trip tickets from LA to Newark to LA months in advance of the Dec. 22nd date. When we got to Newark our flight back was to leave in 30 minutes and they were calling for people to give up their seats in exchange for round trip tickets to anywhere in the continental US. and tickets on the next flight to LA. For the next flight we gave up our tickets for another round of continental US. and tickets on the next flight to LA. We finally flew home late on the 24th. I felt I got a good deal.
Somewhere along the way this whole United incident got messed up. If the airline crew had to be at a destination and United did not have takers on the initial offer, then United was not meeting the price of the customer. In business, the customer may not be always right but the customer is king. United forgot who is paying the bills.
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tomas
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Post by tomas on Apr 13, 2017 15:11:54 GMT -8
Ummm, moving "another" crew would cause "another" flight to be cancelled. In that event hundreds of people would miss their flight instead of just four I spoke with a friend who is a pilot for another airline and he said that his company has crews on call for situations like this one. Hmmmm. Overbooking has been going on many many years, including the many years when airlines made losses rather than profits. Profit margins remain very tight. The point is to reduce costs. The more full the plane is, the lower the per seat cost, and the lower the airfare. Because lots of people cancel and/or don't show, the airlines need to overbook to have a reasonable chance of filling the airplane. I've got no problem with companies making money. But I am going to call BS on tight profit margins. In 2016 United brought in over $2billion in income after operating costs according to their own press release ( newsroom.united.com/2017-01-17-United-Airlines-Reports-Full-Year-and-Fourth-Quarter-2016-Performance).
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jazzmom
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Post by jazzmom on Apr 13, 2017 16:03:34 GMT -8
I don't care if United acted within its rights or per established protocols or whatever. It's absolutely not OK to physically manhandle and drag a passenger off an airplane when he has done absolutely nothing to warrant it.
United should have bumped people before they boarded. They screwed up. And once that happened, they should have paid *whatever it took* to get a volunteer to get off the plane. Whatever that number might have been, I guarantee it's cheaper than what this debacle is going to cost them.
Obviously, there was more than one idiot decision made that day but whoever thought it was the right decision to drag that man down the aisle shouldn't be working anywhere near a service industry. JMO.
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