tarol
Trail Wise!
Redding, CA
Posts: 582
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Post by tarol on Sept 20, 2015 7:50:25 GMT -8
The NPS said they entered between 3:30 and 4:30 - collaborated by a group that passed them and notified rangers. This article has the most information of any that I've seen graphics.latimes.com/zion-flash-flood/I've hiked slot canyons before, but not during the monsoon months. When thunderstorms are in the forecast, go early is the advice I've always heard, no matter what your destination, because if nothing else hypothermia is a risk... but especially flood and lightning prone areas. Don't wait until the afternoon. We're ultra-cautious, because I've been working in canyons that are prone to flash floods for the past 8 years. This hits close to home because I can't count the number of times I warn people to stay out of the wash areas because of the forecast. Besides doing the hike so late in the day, they had only one rope - so they were slower than the other group. And then the fact that the instructors thought they were going into another canyon. They were staying outside the park, then drove into the park in the afternoon - they could've stopped and asked the rangers one more time about the forecast... They had seen and photographed clouds and were probably concerned about it, the text the one guy sent gave me shivers.
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Post by 1camper on Sept 20, 2015 8:07:21 GMT -8
So sad. Often the first casualty of hiking with a large group is the early start.
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davesenesac
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Our precious life is short within eternity, don't waste it!
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Post by davesenesac on Sept 20, 2015 22:21:39 GMT -8
Thanks for the link Tarol. Fills in a fair amount of information. One person picked up the permit and would have noticed the sign that there was as 40% chance of precipitation and heavy thunderstorms from the NWS Salt Lake City Office. If that person was not a weather interested person in the group they may not have bothered to relay that information on to the leaders. And the leaders may not have asked that person to check the latest permit station weather report. Instead someone phoned a family member probably back in Southern California at 1pm to ask about the weather forecast. Did that person check the Salt Lake City NWS forecast or something watered down from some an urban tv station or the broad regions forecast from The Weather Channel? Did the group get the NWS SLC forecast but considered that not a reason to abort? I would tend to expect if they had the NWS forecast that they would have certainly aborted.
As an old alpine skier I have met fair numbers of other very experienced skiers that have rather poor understandings of winter weather. Sure they do know a lot about skiing but the weather is just this thing they listen to the local urban tv weather person about sometime near the end of the work week taking whatever in simple terms and then their group hits the road pm Friday. The fatal party was from Southern California where thunderstorms are far more uncommon than in Arizona or the Sierra. Many urban people don't experience storms outside much even when they do occur. Just take cover and go about their business. And if this speculation was the situation, then it may have been that despite receiving at least some communication other than the SLC NWS forecast that there might be storms, that didn't register as potentially very dangerous?
Or some of them were weather savvy and it just didn't work out that they received any current reports that day, busy about seeing a list of scenic sights. A group having fun together driving about, talking about the slot canyon trip, may not have made much effort to get a real up to date weather report. But at least one did something because several of them did take the canyoneering class that week where the instructor certainly had to talk about weather safety. Looking up at the sky as they left their vehicles at Zion, some puffy clouds, why worry? Why ruin the best part of our vacation for an iffy forecast?
No one survived so we will never know why. The take away might be that when one's life is being bet rolling the dice should be declined. If one needs to jump across a raging ice cold spring torrent dropping into an inescapable chasm where a fall means certain death, be 100% sure you can make even a short jump or back away.
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Post by High Sierra Fan on Sept 21, 2015 10:51:57 GMT -8
"One person picked up the permit.... "
Underlying my skepticism of all the endless posts regarding the two backpackers that recently lost their lives in Yosemite all echoing "NEVER hike solo!": I just see a risk in group members delegating safety issues one too many levels away from themselves as an added challenge.
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rebeccad
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Writing like a maniac
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Post by rebeccad on Sept 21, 2015 16:11:47 GMT -8
nderlying my skepticism of all the endless posts regarding the two backpackers that recently lost their lives in Yosemite all echoing "NEVER hike solo!": I just see a risk in group members delegating safety issues one too many levels away from themselves as an added challenge. yes. And, in this case, also as noted by someone above, the early start is the first casualty of a group (well, unless you have Spindle dragging everyone up and out and marching them to the trailhead at double-time!) (Actually, my spouse is pretty danged good at that too).
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Post by swimswithtrout on Sept 21, 2015 17:30:37 GMT -8
And, in this case, also as noted by someone above, the early start is the first casualty of a group (well, unless you have Spindle dragging everyone up and out and marching them to the trailhead at double-time!) +1
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jay
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Posts: 152
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Post by jay on Sept 22, 2015 4:05:47 GMT -8
I agree that hiking in a group can, at times, lend a false sense of security. I like to hike solo and in that scenario, I know that it is up to me to be aware and recognize any potential problems or hazards I might encounter. I have seen a number of times that a group out tends to become more of a sightseeing trip and people forget to be mindful of their surroundings.
I wonder if there is any data posted anywhere that might indicate if there is a higher ratio of accidents or injuries percentage-wise in hiking alone or in a group? Does anyone know of any links floating out there in Cyberspace on this topic?
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Post by markweth on Sept 22, 2015 11:56:14 GMT -8
I agree that hiking in a group can, at times, lend a false sense of security. I like to hike solo and in that scenario, I know that it is up to me to be aware and recognize any potential problems or hazards I might encounter. I have seen a number of times that a group out tends to become more of a sightseeing trip and people forget to be mindful of their surroundings. I wonder if there is any data posted anywhere that might indicate if there is a higher ratio of accidents or injuries percentage-wise in hiking alone or in a group? Does anyone know of any links floating out there in Cyberspace on this topic? This is an excellent point. I tend to hike solo as well for various reasons, including those you mentioned. I've met many long-time backpackers who prefer to go solo for similar reasons. It's an interesting dilemma . . . If I'm injured, it would be great to have a partner who could help me or leave to seek assistance. But on the other hand, sometimes it's a partner who can convince you to do something dangerous, or who does something dangerous on their own and then puts you in the position of rescuer. Very interesting food for thought.
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whistlepunk
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I was an award winning honor student once. I have no idea what happened...
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Post by whistlepunk on Sept 22, 2015 14:36:50 GMT -8
Situational Awareness is your personal responsibility whether solo or in a group. Echoing above, I am way more cautious solo. Group pressure often coerces you into disregarding your caution.
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Post by obchristo on Sept 22, 2015 19:47:53 GMT -8
One of the victims was the father of an employee in my company. Our whole company is grieving with him.
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desert dweller
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Power to the Peaceful...Hate does not create.
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Post by desert dweller on Oct 5, 2015 15:59:49 GMT -8
They've started an investigation of the lead-up to the ill-fated hike. link
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Westy
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Diagnosed w/Post-Trail Transition Syndrome
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Post by Westy on Oct 5, 2015 21:18:23 GMT -8
My last Grand Canyon permit was for our family. We had one (1) day in which the distance between the designated campsites exceeded ten (10) miles. As a result I had to submit a Grand Canyon form which was essentially a GCNP resume siting under the rim experience. Upon completion of the form, we were granted the permit.
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