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Post by starwalker on Sept 17, 2015 10:36:07 GMT -8
Zion National Park news releases on the deaths in Keyhole Canyon I never hiked the Keyhole when I worked there, but I know that is only about 1/2 mile away, at the most, from the highway. I looked at Google maps, zoomed in, and could see just how narrow that slot canyon is. Rest in peace, folks. I wish you had paid attention to the weather better, but you aren't the first ones who take chances with the weather.
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Post by High Sierra Fan on Sept 17, 2015 11:03:30 GMT -8
Seven deaths? That's tragic. www.nps.gov/zion/learn/news/keyhole_9_15_15.htmA reinforcement of the lesson that pushing when the weather is saying "no" can have very bad consequences. And the dangers of slot canyons and rain/weather and flash floods is plastered all over that park so there's no way it wasn't a known issue for the visitors.
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Post by swimswithtrout on Sept 17, 2015 18:40:54 GMT -8
A reinforcement of the lesson that pushing when the weather is saying "no" can have very bad consequences. And the dangers of slot canyons and rain/weather and flash floods is plastered all over that park so there's no way it wasn't a known issue for the visitors. Last body recovered www.sltrib.com/home/2960471-155/search-resumes-for-last-of-zion
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desert dweller
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Post by desert dweller on Sept 17, 2015 20:23:46 GMT -8
It's hard to conjure their knowledge of imminent death.
Strength to the families.
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rebeccad
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Post by rebeccad on Sept 17, 2015 20:31:13 GMT -8
It's sad to see that they were warned there was a high danger of flash floods, but chose to go anyway. I saw that there were also 13 people killed in a nearby town, when two cars were swept away (I did have a moment's pause at the numbers in that report!). Fast water is one of my deepest fears. I can't imagine what they all went through.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2015 8:01:42 GMT -8
I'm supposing the group did not have a weather radio or access to weather updates — unless they chose to ignore those warnings and restrictions. The National Weather Service issued a flash flood warning and the Park Service closed the area to canyoneering at least an hour before the group entered the canyon. That's according to the news release.
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Post by High Sierra Fan on Sept 18, 2015 8:36:16 GMT -8
It's sad to see that they were warned there was a high danger of flash floods, but chose to go anyway. I saw that there were also 13 people killed in a nearby town, when two cars were swept away (I did have a moment's pause at the numbers in that report!). Fast water is one of my deepest fears. I can't imagine what they all went through. The calendar is a powerful thing. People submit to the calendar far too many times at their peril. That's when their vacation was, so that's when they went... People routinely get rescued or "recovered" in the mountain West once fall starts to transition to winter and people still head out in the face of a looming storm due to their calendar... ETA: I'm not familiar with that route. Is there signage at the trailhead when they close the canyon? I know there is at the mouth of the river for going upstream from Zion Canyon.
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Post by ecocentric on Sept 18, 2015 8:39:09 GMT -8
Clear skies can cloud the mind when it comes to the risk assessment required for that kind of "hike."
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rebeccad
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Post by rebeccad on Sept 18, 2015 8:46:39 GMT -8
From the article SWT linked: Dismissing Zion rangers' warnings that flash flooding was "probable" as storm clouds gathered Monday, the canyoneering group used their permit to explore Keyhole, a narrow slot canyon on the park's east side.
Park officials cannot legally bar anyone with a permit from going into the canyons, regardless of weather dangers.
Once the official National Weather Service flash flood warning for the park was issued at 2:22 p.m. Monday, rangers closed all canyons and suspended issuing permits. However, the group was already in Keyhole by then.
As HSF notes, the calendar can be a deadly master, and a hard-to-get permit (I don't know, but I'm guessing they are) can lead even people who know better to do what they shouldn't.
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desert dweller
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Post by desert dweller on Sept 18, 2015 14:53:43 GMT -8
New details about the canyoneers. Plus, a last group photo from a recovered camera. link
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tarol
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Post by tarol on Sept 18, 2015 14:57:59 GMT -8
I read that the party entered the canyon around 4:00 pm? After the flash flood warning was issued...
Just makes me sad, seems to have been preventable.
In our area we always tell folks that thunderstorms are more common in the afternoon - so if you're going to summit a peak or be in a canyon, go early in the morning! We had a recent fatality in Forest Falls, which is prone to flash flooding. I was there in the morning when it was blue sky beautiful, but made it a point to leave by 1:00 pm. The fatality occurred about 5:00 pm.
Anyway, these folks were avid hikers and So Cal locals... Got these emails
"It is with deep sadness and a heavy heart that I write this. The recent tragedy at Zion National Park has claimed the lives of 7 members of the Valencia Hike Crew. This is a very sad time for ALL of us in the southern California Hike Community. Hikers treat hikers like family and we have lost family... Please keep their immediate loved ones and extended family members in your thoughts and prayers as we suffer the loss of these intrepid soles... Thank you, Sincerely, David Borchart Owner: San Gabriel Mountains Backpack and Hike Group
Dear Friends, Please join us for a tribute and remembrance of our dear VHC friends we loved so well. Together we will find the strength and guidance to carry us again into the wild places we love so much with only fond memories of those we have lost. Placerita Canyon County Park 19152 Placerita Canyon Rd, Newhall, CA 12:00 pm Sunday September 20, 2015 In order to accommodate everyone, the event will be held in an open house format from 12 noon to 5:00pm. You are welcome to come at your convenience and stay for as long as you wish, but we request that you do attempt to select a time that spreads the attendance out. We also want to urge everyone to carpool as much as possible. There will not be an organized hike, but please feel free to create a hike on the spot! Our friends would have wanted that. There are plenty of trails in Placerita Canyon and we can help you with that. Please feel free to pass along this notice to anyone you think may wish to participate. We also ask that information concerning this event not be passed to the media so we may maintain the privacy of the families and of our gathering. What we would like you to bring: Food and drink: You need not bring paper plates, cups, napkins etc. we will provide them. Please help us have a variety of food by following this guideline if at all possible: Based on your birthdate please bring: Jan Feb March - Veggies / Salad Apr May June – Protein July Aug Sept - Pasta / Carb Oct Nov Dec - Fruit / Dessert Please understand that we will need to keep a watchful eye on the length of time food sits outside. We would like everyone to be responsible for maintenance of their food, plates, containers etc. and to ensure all your food is policed when you depart or removed after two hours unless it physically cannot spoil. We also greatly encourage the following:
Pictures: I know time is short, but please try and bring printed pictures suitable in size for a 12”x12” album with dates, location, etc. written on the back of each photo. Bring as many as you want or can! These will be displayed on our tables throughout the day. They will then be collected to be placed in seven volumes which will also be available during the day for your sentiments and signatures, and provided to the families. Bandanas (much preferred): Or scarves and pennants, with a written sentiment. When you arrive you will be able to tie your bandana to a line strung at the picnic area where they will be displayed throughout the day and then also provided to the families. Camp chairs if you can, as seating may be an issue.
Observe moments of silence throughout the day: To honor our seven companions we will hold seven, thirty-second moments of silence at the following times:
1:00pm, 1:30pm, 2:00pm, 2:30pm, 3:00pm, 3:30pm, and 4:00pm. Placerita Canyon County Park 19152 Placerita Canyon Rd, Newhall, CA 12:00 pm Sunday September 20, 2015"
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rangewalker
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Post by rangewalker on Sept 18, 2015 19:03:14 GMT -8
Weather band radio in that part of the West is really bad and there is virtually no stream flow monitoring that can capture these events. I nearly buffed it in flash flood on a BP trip in Sycamore Creek Wilderness Coconino NF in AZ 40 years ago and we could smell the run-off and mud coming with blue skies over head 40 years ago. Good news was when the water receded we had an urgent re-supply at hand in the pool and washouts left behind.
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davesenesac
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Post by davesenesac on Sept 18, 2015 20:55:28 GMT -8
Very sad to see fellow enthusiasts much like we members here lose their precious lives. May their eternal souls rest in peace. As a community there is value in asking why and how we can avoid such in the future. Since they were told right before they left that thunderstorms were in the area but still decided to move up the canyon, they apparently didn't consider that a serious threat they couldn't handle as no group will put themselves into harms way they truly believe is dangerous. They were obviously experienced outdoor people with all the right equipment with some having done canyoneering trips before. We see this same kind of disregard for potentially dangerous conditions in our mountains so I wonder why this is? What leads to these kind of situations by otherwise experienced enthusiasts? Snippet from hikehalfdome.com/accidents/:Lightning strike kills 2 (August 1985) 5 hikers ascended up Half Dome late in the day and met with tragedy from two ferocious lightning strikes... It recounts how the young men, full of enthusiasm and bravado, ignored nature’s warnings and hiked up the famed cable trail right into the vortex of a fierce thunderstorm. They took shelter in the rock “cave” enclosure at the summit. Lightning struck the Dome twice, killing one of the hikers and causing a second to tumble over the edge, out of the grasp of his best friend. Two survivors were gravely injured. With climbers there are numbers of stories by some peakbaggers but without tragic results upon seeing gathering thunderstorms making hasty retreats down to lower elevations and while on the way passing other climbers that are still intent on climbing up with little worry. In 1990 the federal government was successfully sued by some that died from lightning strikes in the rock hut atop Mount Whitney when 16 people were inside despite the fact people have always been warned against being in high places during storms and the trailhead has always been so signed. The judge declared the government also needed to put signs up inside that hut that was laughed at by mountain enthusiasts as nanny state nonsense since any climbers ought to know it was dangerous as common sense. My reason for mentioning the story here is it is an example of how some people if they don't clearly understand dangerous phenomenon may act against common wisdom that most would consider obvious if they see other people disregarding such. Much the same behavior during special outdoor events in cities where there isn't enough parking and on one street a single person parks along a street with numbers of NO PARKING signs. Sure enough other people will start doing same, will look at the signs and apparently think it is ok since other people did it. A short time later all have tickets on their windshields. A couple years ago a very experienced backpacker challenged the High Sierra on one fall snow storm too many and succumbed at 11k Taboose Pass. He had a history of forum trip reports with modest spring and fall storms with snow. Several days in advance I had closely watched the coming storm and posting warnings on a board the person doubtlessly had read. In these cases will speculate people may have relied more on their own personal past experiences more while less on prevailing public wisdom. So part of this may be about personalities with a more challenging go for it attitude and maybe also a tendency to disregard common guidelines of safety on conditions they personally have not experienced nor adequately understand the dangerous nature of phenomenon for. Also the less frequently truly dangerous conditions occur the more likely some who otherwise know better will tend to dismiss the possibility of a rare event. An event like this Zion flood that may occur only once every few decades at specific locations. Accordingly it may not be enough for authorities to simply put up warnings like "don't hike up slot canyons in thunderstorm weather" and "avoid high ridge lines and peaks during electrical storms". Somehow authorities and enthusiast communities may need to figure out how to convince people these dangers are real possibilities even if relatively rare.
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rebeccad
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Post by rebeccad on Sept 19, 2015 20:36:30 GMT -8
I think the problem is, as always, gauging the danger. If there were no clouds when they started (at least, none they could see--an obviously huge issue down in canyons), and the change of t-storms was 40%, or even 60%, well, the odds might seem pretty good. It's in the nature of humans not to believe bad things can happen. The fact that the rangers told them there was a very good chance of a storm and flash-floods might be seen as "what the rangers always say."
Tarol, it sounds like there are discrepancies in the reports--the article I read said that they were already in the canyon when the warning was issued at 2:22 p.m. 4:00 seems awfully late to start such a hike. Seems like that question could be answered pretty definitively with the photo DD posted--almost all cameras now use date and time stamps. Even if the clock wasn't set right, they could probably figure out how far it was off by other photos.
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BigLoad
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Post by BigLoad on Sept 19, 2015 21:25:51 GMT -8
I think the problem is, as always, gauging the danger. I generally avoid slots for that reason. The fatal rain can be something small that forms quickly far away. Forecasts in that area are much less reliable than they are at home. Flood debris in treetops and on cliff ledges constantly reminds me of how high and how quickly waters rise in the desert, even without the extreme confinement of a slot. It is all too easy to imagine how the canyoneers' final moments played out. My condolences to their families and friends.
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