almostthere
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putting on my hiking shoes....
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Post by almostthere on May 1, 2016 8:45:03 GMT -8
There are expensive purchases I've regretted, and others I have never regretted. Switching from synthetic? Never regretted a dime I spent on good down gear. It will last a long time -- decades -- if taken care of, and synthetic just wears out. Especially if you use it more than a couple nights a year.
I really never understood what was behind that "it's cheaper" thing -- it's really not, if you plan to keep camping and backpacking for years to come, because if if you want a lighter load, if you want to be WARM ENOUGH at night -- there is no down side to spending $200-500 ONE TIME and accomplishing all of that instead of spending less money multiple times for decades. I have down quilts that are pushing a decade and they are reliable warm. I got rid of the synthetic junk a long time ago. And if I decided to stop backpacking tomorrow, because they are a known brand and still in really good shape, I could turn around and sell those quilts for at least half what I paid for them because they are worth it. I had to give away the synthetic junk. No market for a bag that originally cost less than a hundred bucks and weighs a ton, especially if it's been used and the fibers are starting to break down, so it's colder than it was new.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2016 8:54:36 GMT -8
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markskor
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Mammoth Lakes & Tuolumne Meadows...living the dream
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Post by markskor on May 1, 2016 9:13:06 GMT -8
I really never understood what was behind that "it's cheaper"... Totally agree - your sleeping kit, IMHO, the most important gear purchase...warm & light - down. To add - After doing all your due research, after narrowing it down to a few possibles, never settle. If you do go "cheaper", maybe not now, but soon enough, you will always regret not spending those few extra bucks on what you really wanted, when you had the chance.
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Post by huntnhike on May 1, 2016 17:30:59 GMT -8
Thanks guys for the input. I'm fairly serious about the Nemo Nocturne 30 but was curious about combining the two others. I hike in the Bighorns and Black hills of WY and it can get cold. But in the Grand canyon next year, I doubt I will need the 30 degree bag in April-June (bug I understand it's possible). . The last few years I have used the Lafuma- 4.8 pounds if it and it's HUGE, but toasty.
I'll be near an REI in two weeks to try some bags and tents out and then decide on a pack- I want one last try comparing the Aether 70, Atmos 65, and Baltoro 65.
Part of my workout today was a mile ruck with a 65 pound pack after a 2 mile run and some other exercises. Hiked a 17 minute mile with it but it was heavy and I really got motivated to meet my goal of sub-40 pound pack weight for my hiking trips.
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Post by trinity on May 1, 2016 18:13:18 GMT -8
I think sleeping bag liners are uncomfortable and don't really make your bag warmer. Bite the bullet for a good sleeping bag - not a better investment you can make as a backpacker. Completely agree. I have a silk liner that I use occasionally, mainly to help keep sweat and grime off my sleeping bag. It adds approximately 0.0 degrees of additional warmth to my sleep system. You will never regret spending money on a quality down sleeping bag. If cost is a major issue, look into quilts, you can get a 20 degree Enlightened Equipment Revelation for a mere $250 dollars, coming in at around 20 ounces: link. I can't imagine spending good money on a synthetic sleeping bag.
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Post by dirthurts on May 1, 2016 18:54:41 GMT -8
I agree. Liners are a mess. They're really only good for keeping a sleeping bag clean. Not so much for adding warmth. They twist, tangle up, and take up wiggle room inside. Not to mention complicate getting in and out.
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almostthere
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putting on my hiking shoes....
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Post by almostthere on May 1, 2016 19:10:03 GMT -8
I agree. Liners are a mess. They're really only good for keeping a sleeping bag clean. Not so much for adding warmth. They twist, tangle up, and take up wiggle room inside. Not to mention complicate getting in and out. A base layer and clean socks are multi - use - keep the bag clean, act as a warm layer in a pinch. No reason to sleep in the dirty hiking clothes. And you have incentive to wash up some before changing into them. Bandana bath?
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BigLoad
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Post by BigLoad on May 1, 2016 19:39:10 GMT -8
A base layer and clean socks are multi - use - keep the bag clean, act as a warm layer in a pinch. No reason to sleep in the dirty hiking clothes. I agree to an extent, but I always have a couple reasons. Sometimes I'm totally out of gas and crawling into my sleeping bag fully clothed is about all I can do. It saves a little time in the morning, too, not to mention those few moments of cold I like to avoid. However, most of the time I do switch to base layer (and perhaps another). Above all, I agree with most people who fell for them that liners are a scam when it comes to warmth. You're far better off investing in a few more ounces of down within same shell you're already carrying. It adds a lot more warmth for a lot less weight. Yes, it costs more now, but nothing costs as much to buy twice as a sleeping bag.
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amaruq
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Post by amaruq on May 2, 2016 12:37:59 GMT -8
*shrug* My fleece liner adds about 10C or so to my -7C sleeping bag (empirically determined) and fills up any remaining air gap in the mummy bag. YMMV, HYOH, etc.
At the end of the day, drop good coin on your ground pad because cold ground will suck away your warmth faster than the air will.
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almostthere
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Post by almostthere on May 2, 2016 15:51:08 GMT -8
Yeah, that Thermolite liner that was supposed to add so much warmth -- total fail. I'd have sold it a long time ago but my cat chewed holes in it. It's one of many monuments to Gear Mistakes I Have Made (tm).
I have to wonder about research done by the maker of the item.... In my day job, research is often skewed to the advantage of the person who stands to make the money. And then disproven resoundingly, and then years of controversy ensue....
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jazzmom
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Post by jazzmom on May 2, 2016 16:04:33 GMT -8
Is there a reason why you're focused on Nemo gear? Unless you're seeing an exceptional sale on their products somewhere (I didn't see anything with a quick search), I personally wouldn't pay full price for the three items you mentioned. IMO, none of the pieces have specs that warrant paying their MSRP.
If you don't want to be confined in a mummy bag, consider a down quilt instead. A lot lighter and for the same price as the Nocturne, you can get a much higher fill quilt that will cover a much wider temperature range. Many hikers here who can recommend good cottage companies for quilts.
If your wife sleeps cold, then that's where you want to spend the money for a higher-fill count down bag. Warmer for the same weight. The Rhumba's a 650-fill bag, with a 33-deg EN Comfort rating - REI lists it for $260. For those kind of specs, you might as well go for something like the Kelty Cosmic 20 for half the price.
Lots of 3lb 2-person tents out there. Do a little research and you're bound to find something decent on sale.
For the Grand Canyon, you don't need bug protection. I carry a tarp but mostly cowboy camp.
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zeke
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Post by zeke on May 2, 2016 16:37:09 GMT -8
Yeah, the Canyon will most likely be warm. Tarp for shade, not in Canyon. I am another who cowboy camps there. Bugs are not an issue. I have seen a scorpion or 2, and a snake or 2,on the trail, but not in camp. Not live ones anyway. Not my handiwork either. I let things live another day.
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Post by huntnhike on May 4, 2016 17:39:26 GMT -8
Is there a reason why you're focused on Nemo gear? ]For the Grand Canyon, you don't need bug protection. I carry a tarp but mostly cowboy camp. I guess you could say I get a "friends and family" discount on marmot big Agnes, Gregory, osprey and Nemo that comes out between 40-60%... So that adds up quick if I'm looking at a tent and 2 bags and 2 packs... Tent over tarp- wife refuses to sleep without "a barrier" between her and any potential scorpions and snakes... Coming from the girl who likes to play with bugs but refuses to let them sleep with her...
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Post by gcsaylor on May 6, 2016 6:02:59 GMT -8
Well before I joined this forum I purchased a used TNF climashield filled 20deg mummy bag. Used it last night first time and it's definitely too small for me. I'll stick it on ebay and find something else. Nice and warm though. I had been sold on synthetic bags from ocean racing on sailboats. You could pick up a dripping wet bag off the cabin floor and climb in it with your wet weather gear on and get comfortable sleep. After your opinions a rethink is necessary.
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almostthere
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Post by almostthere on May 6, 2016 6:41:30 GMT -8
Well before I joined this forum I purchased a used TNF climashield filled 20deg mummy bag. Used it last night first time and it's definitely too small for me. I'll stick it on ebay and find something else. Nice and warm though. I had been sold on synthetic bags from ocean racing on sailboats. You could pick up a dripping wet bag off the cabin floor and climb in it with your wet weather gear on and get comfortable sleep. After your opinions a rethink is necessary. Climb in with your wet weather gear? So, a vapor barrier? The rest of the story is that being on the ocean is not that cold. One Search and Rescue training I took along a Marmot Neverwinter 0 degree down bag, an Exped Downmat 9 (rated to subzero temps, natch) and a complete dry set of clothing in reserve including underwear. I was the smart one. People had 30F bags and 1/4" foam pads, and NeoAirs. When it came time to bunk down for the night they put us inside a garage -- concrete floor sucks away heat like you would not believe. You may as well put your pad on the ice sheet on the lake. Moving out into the snow would have been warmer for those folks -- snow, believe it or not, has enough air in it that it is relatively warm. Digging a snow cave as an emergency shelter you can stay in the 30s all night - not comfortable, but survivable, and your body heat keeps the snow around you melting a little, so you're a little wet. But you're alive, which is more than you would be outside in open air at -10F in a storm. Anyway - back to the garage. I pumped up my pad, changed clothes, got in the bag and listened to everyone's teeth chattering and the whining of strapping young men half my age. It was below 20F in the garage, that early in the night. (There is a cooling down at night after the sun goes down, that reaches its peak around 2-3 am, so I knew it would be plenty cold later.) I was still cold. Not bad cold, not teeth-chattering cold. But not quite warm. I realized that I had not changed my underwear - I'd taken off the bra, but not the panties. So inside the bag I got the base layer bottoms off, got the underwear off, swapped to a dry pair I brought, put the base layer back on - between all the movement and the dry underwear I immediately warmed up a lot. You lose heat through convection, radiation, conduction. Your skin gives off moisture all the time - ALL THE TIME - even when you are not working hard, just sitting there. It will either wick away through the layers of your insulation, or sit there on your skin being damp if you are in a vapor barrier, which stops evaporation and stops radiation somewhat. You will lose heat via conduction to the ground beneath you if your pad isn't insulative enough to stop it -- all pads have R values to help you understand which one you need. The ocean is a great big temperature equalizer. You may have been warm enough on the boat, but on a mountain at 10,000 feet in a July snowstorm with howling wind, you would not be. Not without that vapor barrier. In sub-freezing (0-32F) temperatures the difference becomes very clear - wet is cold. And your skin is not designed to always be wet, extended periods of wet skin cause health issues - you need to get dry at least some of the time, or dry enough. A wet synthetic bag needs to dry out - it will do that faster than down, but only if you have dry enough conditions to do it - so if you don't you're screwed just the same. The body does things to save itself in very cold temperatures but hypothermia is a very real threat in the mountains. More so in the summer -- you wear your jeans and t shirt like always (cotton stays wet forever) and hike, sweating, up to a high breezy pass. The ambient temperature is 55F but suddenly a cold breeze is howling down from a snowfield above. Now you are losing a ton of body heat, which is all you have to keep your core temperature at optimum, and perhaps you were not drinking enough water because people tend not to in the cooler temperatures and become dehydrated. You had a little oatmeal at breakfast, ate a bar at 10 am, but it's nearly 1 pm and you're trying to get to the lake to eat lunch -- you're underfed, your body doesn't have the calories to drive the furnace. You're going to start shivering. You didn't bring a jacket maybe because it's July and summer, and who needs that? This is how newbies get in trouble, repeatedly, just sit for a while and I'll tell you the stories of searching for them... What's that got to do with wet synthetic bags? In the mountains, a lot. There's a 30 degree difference between night and day temps, sometimes more, unlike the ocean where it stays pretty even, and never freezes (not out on the water anyway - I go to Point Reyes in winter, it's plenty freezing just a mile inland...). Get in a wet bag in sweaty clothes and your body heat starts to evaporate the water since it's colder outside than in. The problem is, you've been eating not enough calories to offset all the work of carrying a pack all day, let alone keeping yourself warm in a dry bag at night. You may even be one of those that decides not to get up to pee at night (it's cold, darn it) and stops drinking fluids after dinner, dehydrating yourself further. The body is now trying hard to keep things warm enough and you may not feel particularly chilly - but you're still running in a deficit and you're not going to dry out that bag. You'll be warmer, feel warmer, do better, in dry clothes, in a dry bag. The real difference between synthetic and down is that synthetic DRIES FASTER. Not that it's warmer. I know this to be true because I have observed it to be so. And there was a study some years ago that actually led to a conclusion that the difference between a wet down bag and a wet synthetic bag is maybe a few degrees.... The thing is, it's really, really, really difficult to actually wet out a down bag. You have to be really awesomely clueless or determined to do it. You might get the material a little damp. If you throw the bag in a stream it floats. You have to jump on it, sink in the water, HOLD IT THERE, wrestle with it, squeeze it, to wet out the down to the point that it is in useless little wet clumps. I washed down gear by hand a few times. It was like playing with a large, rebellious sea lion until the down was all wet. You'll lose some of the insulating properties if the down is a little wet, but you won't lose all of it until the bag is truly soaked. You won't let it get to that point. In continental North America, there is no condition so extreme that a down bag doesn't work fine. There are a lot of different conditions in the world -- you won't make the same choices for an Antarctic expedition -- but your average weekend backpacker really doesn't have to be so concerned about wet down. You keep the bag in the waterproof sack until the tent is set up, put it in the tent, wala. Good sleep in a dry bag. If you fall in a creek and it gets really wet because you forgot to put it in a waterproof sack and also you rolled around in the creek for a while for some unknown reason instead of getting right out of the water (it takes a lot to wet out a bag, remember), it's more than likely you'll survive just fine -- you'd just be uncomfortable. If you keep a clear head, don't panic, and either walk out of the wilderness or go about the business of drying out the bag, getting in with a friend, building a small fire, busting out the emergency blanket.... Which is a vapor barrier, and not comfortable at all, but it'll get you through the night. Sure, you can see your body's moisture accumulate in down over time, on a longer trip. I've come home with a damp down quilt before. But then I am at home. I can dry it out. I didn't get cold on the trip because the down was a bit damp. www.beyondcoldwaterbootcamp.com/mechanisms-of-heat-loss
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