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Post by hikerjer on May 14, 2024 20:22:14 GMT -8
OK, a question for you Wyomingites. I just passed through Thermopolis this weekend and stopped just west of town at the "Wedding of the Waters" and became completely mystified. I had long been curious of the actual source of Montana's Big Horn River and could never quite figure it out. After reading the info at the Wedding of the Waters, it turns out the Wind River is the source of the Big Horn but in a very weird way. At this particular nondescript point, the Wind River simply has it's name changed to the Big Horn River. I've never come across this type of name change before. I mean, there's no confluence, no inflowing rivers, no obvious geographical features other than that the Wind River flows out of the Wind River Canyon just a few miles upstream. But really, nothing unusual about the river at this point at all. It just changes names for no apparent or obvious reason. One second it's the Wind River and the next, it's the Big Horn. Struck me as rather odd. My question for those in the know, is why is this the case? Seems that perhaps it should have just remained the Wind River. Any insights?
Thanks
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Post by ecocentric on May 14, 2024 22:17:38 GMT -8
It's Wyoming, it doesn't have to make sense. The Wind River is listed as a tributary to the Bighorn River, but it looks like it just changes name, south (upstream) of Thermopolis. The Bluestone River flowing north from North Carolina does a similar name change to the New River, which becomes the Kanawa River in West Virginia. Keep in mind the "New" River is part of the ancient Teays River which is the second oldest river on Earth after the Nile. Go figure.
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reuben
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Post by reuben on May 15, 2024 2:14:28 GMT -8
Where I used to live there was a road which had three different names, depending on where you were. And you didn't have to turn to get onto any of them, just go straight. There are a few roads at my new place that have at least two names, and again, you never take a turn. Maybe I moved to Wyoming and don't know it.
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Post by va3pinner on May 15, 2024 4:16:28 GMT -8
That's the way it is here in Warrenton Virginia one road three different names depending on where you are With that and mind I might get to visit Wyoming this summer. I'll bring maps from several different publishers to see which one gets it right.....
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Post by nickhowes on May 15, 2024 4:23:52 GMT -8
Yeah, the Wind River to Bighorn River name transition is weird. I also tried to figure out the story many years ago. From what I learned, it's because of the distinct geological basins that the river passes through: It's the Wind River in the Shoshone Basin and the Bighorn River in the Bighorn Basin (which are separated by the Owl Creek Mountains to the West and the Bridger Mountains to the East). Presumably some geologist or cartographer made this decision in the 1800s and we are stuck with it.
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Post by marmotstew on May 15, 2024 5:07:46 GMT -8
They fixed it on Google, it’s the big horn river from Boyer res through Thermopolis. Crisis averted.
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Travis
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Post by Travis on May 15, 2024 5:44:02 GMT -8
The river has historical roots in both names as the roadside sign explains at the "Wedding of the Waters" south of Thermopolis. The location is here ( topo map) just outside the Wind River Indian Reservation. The historical marker reads as follows:
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walkswithblackflies
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Post by walkswithblackflies on May 15, 2024 6:22:25 GMT -8
Prior to 911 re-naming conventions, a few miles from my house Kirkville Road intersected Kirkville Road.
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Post by absarokanaut on May 15, 2024 6:39:34 GMT -8
Jer you're talking about a State that by some measures is the most federally dependent state in The Union yet you would never think that could be given the politics of all but one county. Hypocrisy trumps sense in much of the Equality State. The headwaters country of the Wind East of the Continental Divide and of the Snake West of the Divide make up my favorite "place" in the world. On the Cliffs of the Continental Divide right above Wind River Lake, Brooks Lake, Jade Lakes, Upper Brooks Lake, and Rainbow Lake. ![](https://i.ibb.co/kxtpCgB/46499056-10156992579534917-855655827229376512-o.jpg)
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Post by rebeccad on May 15, 2024 7:01:54 GMT -8
Travis, that’s the explanation I would have guessed. Not always easy to know that it’s the same river, when you stumble on different parts of it before maps, let alone satellite info. I think it probably happened a lot, but usually one name was more well-known than the other or something, so the whole river took one name. I have no explanation for the insane business of EW and NS streets bearing the same name. That’s just stupid. I’m also still shaking my head over certain addresses I used to visit on “west East Street.”
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BigLoad
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Post by BigLoad on May 15, 2024 14:08:26 GMT -8
I was just looking at this area on the map, reading about how the Missouri used to flow north to Hudson Bay.
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Travis
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Post by Travis on May 15, 2024 14:20:24 GMT -8
reading about how the Missouri used to flow north to Hudson Bay. And some people in Wyoming are still complaining about how Big Government changed all that.
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BigLoad
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Post by BigLoad on May 15, 2024 14:47:46 GMT -8
reading about how the Missouri used to flow north to Hudson Bay. And some people in Wyoming are still complaining about how Big Government changed all that. Well, it's a lot harder to get those beaver pelts to market now.
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Travis
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Post by Travis on May 16, 2024 21:18:04 GMT -8
OK, a question for you Wyomingites. I'm not so sure we've answered the question, Jer. The name of the Bighorn River has old roots in Crow oral tradition. It is not accurate history to credit the name to some Euro-American explorer. As I understand it, among the Crow, the tradition was told that if the name of the Bighorn River was ever changed, the Crow people would cease to exist. Of course, Indigenous interests are often ignored — despite the fact that the Crow, Lakota, Cheyenne, and other Indigenous Peoples considered places like the Bighorns and Black Mountains ("Hills") to be sacred in their oral traditions. Regarding the Wind River, recent archeology has shown that "Sheep-Eater" Shoshones have inhabited areas of the Wind River Range for several thousand years. Were the Big Wind River and the Little Wind River also names derived from Indigenous Peoples' oral traditions? It would not surprise me. Why is the "Wedding of the Waters" located a mere 200 yards outside the Wind River Indian Reservation? And who believes that John Colter really "discovered" the mountain range? Historically, Bighorn Sheep were not the rare and threatened species they are today. They were numerous enough to have sustained a band of Shoshone people back through perhaps thousands of years. And Bighorn Sheep were numerous enough to Crow people (and others) to name the Bighorn River for them. In the later 1800s Euro-American settlers brought domestic sheep into the area. Wyoming even experienced range wars because of domestic sheep. But those domestic sheep also carried diseases to which the domestic sheep were immune but the native Bighorn Sheep were not. So at present Bighorn Sheep experience one die-off after another because of diseases introduced by domestic breeds and because of climate change and acid rain.
Yet, Bighorn Sheep may have been as important to some Indigenous People as the bison were to the plains tribes. Apparently, those peoples' respect for the source of their food was high enough to incorporate the animal into their religions via oral tradition. So what we have in all this are apparently two names for the same river, but names which may have centuries-old oral traditions among Indigenous Peoples in those peoples' respective areas. We know that the Bighorn River has some very old roots. Maybe the Big or Little Wind River also? These days we often recognize that place names may derive from derogatory treatment of Indigenous Peoples or from the disgrace that slavery is to our national heritage. So we are changing the official names or taking down the monuments erected for Confederate leaders, slave holders, Indian fighters and so on. As backpackers we may have elevated the Wind River Range into a sort of gold-standard of wilderness experience, a mecca of sorts. But how many backpackers in the so-called "Winds" ever see Bighorn Sheep in one of the Western mountain ranges that Indigenous People lived in for perhaps thousands of years? For thousands of years there were a lot of Bighorn Sheep. Now they are rare. So why not simplify our maps and name the entire river for our chosen mecca?
But if we do, maybe we are just continuing the process of rewriting history to hide our errors. The Crow, Shoshone, Lakota, Cheyenne and other Indigenous Peoples have been relegated to reservations. The Bighorn Sheep have mostly died off because of our desire to have wool fabrics. But maybe there is a reason to leave the names as they are, lest they mean something to us someday. As I keep learning, the Bighorn Mountains are not the mecca for backpackers that the Wind River Range is. But I'm not so sure my Indigenous neighbors would see it all that way. And maybe someday we won't either.
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balzaccom
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Post by balzaccom on May 18, 2024 1:05:32 GMT -8
You should write more long, thoughtful posts like this one, Travis.
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