BigLoad
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Post by BigLoad on Apr 13, 2024 20:03:59 GMT -8
This is just mind-blowing to me: linkI'm astounded that they're so identifiably distinct and that the distinction can be traced back so far. It's difficult to see how anyone could still argue for a much more recent peopling of the Americas.
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Post by bluefish on Apr 14, 2024 3:03:11 GMT -8
This is just mind-blowing to me: linkI'm astounded that they're so identifiably distinct and that the distinction can be traced back so far. It's difficult to see how anyone could still argue for a much more recent peopling of the Americas.
Absolutely, it would be hard to argue the 10,000 year old land bridge thesis. It's fascinating and opens up so many possibilities about lineage in the peopling of the Americas. I'm equally interested how this will affect rights, social constructs, and tribal relations going forward. |
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reuben
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Post by reuben on Apr 14, 2024 3:22:19 GMT -8
I'm quite ignorant on this subject - my knowledge was frozen in junior high. Can you succinctly enlighten me or point me to a good book or website?
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BigLoad
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Post by BigLoad on Apr 14, 2024 4:51:26 GMT -8
I'm quite ignorant on this subject - my knowledge was frozen in junior high. Can you succinctly enlighten me or point me to a good book or website? There's an adamant core of archeologists who insist with unshakeable conviction that the people who left Clovis-style tools about 13k years ago had to be the first Americans. These were named for a town in (I think) New Mexico where they were first discovered, but the style is pretty widespread across North America. For many years now evidence for earlier habitation has been mounting in spots across both Americas. The most famous recent discovery are the 22k-year old footprints found near White Sands NM. Some evidence found in center cenotes in South America could be much older, but is less certain. However, archeologists cling with religious fervor to the Clovis-first axiom, in part because they claim sea migration is implausible. For comparison, Australia was populated by sea migration perhaps 65k years ago, and other islands in southeast Asia back in the Homo Erectus era. |
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BigLoad
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Post by BigLoad on Apr 14, 2024 4:59:15 GMT -8
The other steadfast claim of which I'm dubious is that there was a single peopling event, or at most only a handful very close together in time.
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Post by Sleeping Bag Man! on Apr 14, 2024 5:12:49 GMT -8
Clovis First, Shmovis Shmirst!
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Westy
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Post by Westy on Apr 14, 2024 5:34:26 GMT -8
On somewhat the same subject with a bigly fast forward...A book that has enthralled me for some time is 1421 The Year China Discovered America Author Gavin Menzies. He argues that Chinese ships reached America seventy years before Columbus and circumnavigated the globe a century before Magellan and they colonized America before the Europeans.
My Blackfeet interface was three-fold. Hired a tribal member to collect my daughter and I at the Canadian border and take us back to East Glacier after hiking the CDT section in GNP. We learned about the origin story (Present day Rising Sun Road) and that their greatest warrior was a woman. The next year I finished the CDT at East Glacier coming up NOBO from the Bob. To celebrate I went to the fancy-dancy Glacier Park Lodge for a whatever-I-want dinner supplemented with a cocktail and a glass or two of fine wine. East Glacier is on Blackfeet ground. The weekend I finished was the annual Blackfeet four-day tribal conference. For the four-day period alcoholic beverages were banned. Thus, my long-awaited, 4-year, Covid delayed, 3,100-mile hike was toasted with a mocktail!
Back to Clovis...new evidence is going way back in time; some say by 40,000 years.
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Travis
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Post by Travis on Apr 14, 2024 9:47:38 GMT -8
Not only does this research add more evidence to refute the Clovis-first theory, but it also raises questions about what is even meant by the notion of a “Clovis culture.” The research suggests that the cultural ties shared by the Blackfeet-Kainai were far stronger than the cultural ties shared by use of Clovis points throughout the Americas.
That people have been in the Americas far longer that Clovis-first has claimed is no longer so mind-boggling. What is mind-boggling is the question of what ties the Blackfeet-Kainai shared that were strong enough to leave a genetic string going back 18,000 years.
It seems to me that the Clovis-first theory has been the skeleton hidden in the closet of academic-institutionalized archeology. It became the sacred paradigm limiting honest science by denying funding to, and cutting short the careers of, any archeologist that dared question it. And perhaps the would-be paradigm was maintained by the prejudice of euro-americans seeking some sort of academic legacy for their presumptions.
To see indigenous scholars leading this research — in cooperation with various universities — offers a bit of fresh air to our curiosity.
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ErnieW
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Post by ErnieW on Apr 14, 2024 10:50:05 GMT -8
I'm quite ignorant on this subject - my knowledge was frozen in junior high. Can you succinctly enlighten me or point me to a good book or website? Same but I found this: bigthink.com/the-past/ice-free-corridor-clovis-americas/I have seen some things that possibly there was also crossings from Africa. It's not as far as crossing the Pacific. |
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balzaccom
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Post by balzaccom on Apr 14, 2024 11:31:38 GMT -8
There is considerable support for a coastal navigation or even transpacific immigration from Asia to North America long before the ice-age land bridge. It would help explain how there seems to be evidence of people getting from Alaska to Patagonia in a short period of time--and thousands and thousands of years before Clovis. Here's a nice summary of the conflicting theories www.history.com/news/human-migration-americas-beringia |
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Post by trinity on Apr 14, 2024 12:10:43 GMT -8
For anyone interested in this subject, I highly recommend Craig Child's Atlas of a Lost World.. It is a fascinating read. |
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balzaccom
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Post by balzaccom on Apr 14, 2024 13:01:34 GMT -8
For anyone interested in this subject, I highly recommend Craig Child's Atlas of a Lost World.. It is a fascinating read. As are his other books! |
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ErnieW
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Post by ErnieW on Apr 14, 2024 15:57:28 GMT -8
We may have to realize that humans were more than savages running around going ugga bugga for a very long time. That may have helped the consciences of colonial powers but it just isn't true.
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BigLoad
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Post by BigLoad on Apr 14, 2024 18:47:27 GMT -8
Not only does this research add more evidence to refute the Clovis-first theory, but it also raises questions about what is even meant by the notion of a “Clovis culture.” The research suggests that the cultural ties shared by the Blackfeet-Kainai were far stronger than the cultural ties shared by use of Clovis points throughout the Americas. That people have been in the Americas far longer that Clovis-first has claimed is no longer so mind-boggling. What is mind-boggling is the question of what ties the Blackfeet-Kainai shared that were strong enough to leave a genetic string going back 18,000 years. It seems to me that the Clovis-first theory has been the skeleton hidden in the closet of academic-institutionalized archeology. It became the sacred paradigm limiting honest science by denying funding to, and cutting short the careers of, any archeologist that dared question it. And perhaps the would-be paradigm was maintained by the prejudice of euro-americans seeking some sort of academic legacy for their presumptions. To see indigenous scholars leading this research — in cooperation with various universities — offers a bit of fresh air to our curiosity. "Culture" is the magic word here. I never understood why archeologists were so insistent on "Archaic" being a single, uniform continental culture that subsequently differentiated. I don't know if anyone still views it that way, but it seemed like the standard NPS line for ages. Part of the argument was that there were greatly dispersed small bands of people all being whoever they were when they crossed Beringia, and it took millennia for them to reach enough density to compete for resources and finally gang up on each other after forming group identities. I always thought that was hogwash invented to cover up a lack of data. It seems more likely that competition and differentiation are pretty much inevitable in any group of more than one person. |
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Post by Lamebeaver on Apr 21, 2024 10:36:33 GMT -8
My understanding of the land bridge is that it has existed several times, not as a single event.
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