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Post by tipiwalter on Mar 5, 2016 17:52:55 GMT -8
Ask Scotland. A golf course in Yellowstone comes to mind, along with imminent domain to do so. Remember he wants to gut the EPA. Who needs the Clean Air or Clean Water act? He could make Flint his model city.
I'm no apologist to the almighty Car. As our population explodes to 450,000,000 by 2050, we'll have to seriously reconsider our National Park policy (and State Parks like Baxter) of rolling tourists gaining access to these last wild places. Here in the Southeast you can't backpack further than about 8 miles or less from road access in any given direction. We're eat up with the automobile. And I foresee this happening inevitably of course out west.
Odd thing is, the choice to cut roads into our NPs and around our wilderness areas are human choices only, and can be reversed without a dictatorship or martial law. Just choose another way. It even happens here in my neck of the woods.
We used to have a hateful OHV off-road vehicle "playground" on the headwaters of the Tellico River with 35 miles of 4-wheel drive access. Several years ago the state of TN closed it down, resulting in much cleaner river water coming off the mountains.
We have a long trail called the Sycamore Creek trail which 2 decades ago used to be a jeep track to the top of Whiggs Meadow. It was permanently closed and is now part of the Benton MacKaye trail.
Point is, the choice to have these roads (and there are many inside Baxter SP---how else can tourists get their 40 foot RVs inside??), is a human choice with the chance for reversal. If the Baxter police can require papers for thruhikers, they should also petition for the closing of Baxter roads while they're at it. Why? To protect the "pristine" environment and to prevent overcrowding. Especially close the Roaring Brook rd to the ranger station and the trailhead to Katahdin. It's only about 4 miles from the road to the mountaintop. This would really thin the herd.
And I'd be a very happy backpacker to see my road access to the Citico and Slickrock wilderness areas end with a parking lot 50 miles away. I'd gladly hike in from there. Better yet, draw a 50 mile radius around Southeast wilderness areas and make this circle roadless.
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Post by High Sierra Fan on Mar 5, 2016 18:16:08 GMT -8
Getting the squirrels to pay for walls around the parks and wilderness? That's just genius. Huge breakthrough, just huge. Though it remains that the additional hiker traffic in the Baxter portion of the AT? Not a vehicle related issue.
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Post by hikerjer on Mar 5, 2016 19:36:25 GMT -8
In all seriousness, I'm a bit confused as often is the case. Does the AT have some sort of national park or national monument status that the park service could implement such rules or does it fall to some other agency I'm not aware of?
Thanks.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2016 19:42:06 GMT -8
Car addiction seems to dictate most of the Baxter usage problems and so I'd first do everything in my power to limit rolling vehicle usage in the Park i.e. close the roads, and THEN see how people on foot shakes out. Close these roads (the Yellowstone comes to mind) and then worry about on-foot overcrowding. Your position in a nutshell is expressed in the above two quotes. What you are saying is that LNT should not apply to hikers at the heart of the backcountry until all vehicle access is blocked on the perimeter of the backcountry. The Scott Jurek crowd ignored several principles of LNT. They traveled in a crowd, littered on top Katahdin and indulged in a boisterous party on the peak. They were inconsiderate of others and disrespectful to wildlife. Yet you propose that the land manager should ignore their behavior at the heart of the backcountry until all vehicle access to the perimeter of the area is banned. You propose that LNT for hikers should not be enforced until after they park their vehicles up to 50 miles further away from the trailhead. It's like saying, don't limit impact to the heart of wilderness until all roads outside the wilderness are shut down. Where do you think you are getting with an argument like that?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2016 19:46:09 GMT -8
Does the AT have some sort of national park or national monument status that the park service could implement such rules or does it fall to some other agency I'm not aware of? There are multiple land managers, including private ownership, as I recall. Baxter State Park is only one of those land managers.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2016 19:48:16 GMT -8
In all seriousness, I'm a bit confused as often is the case. Does the AT have some sort of national park or national monument status that the park service could implement such rules or does it fall to some other agency I'm not aware of? Thanks. The AT
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Post by High Sierra Fan on Mar 5, 2016 19:52:34 GMT -8
In all seriousness, I'm a bit confused as often is the case. Does the AT have some sort of national park or national monument status that the park service could implement such rules or does it fall to some other agency I'm not aware of? Thanks. Its one if the Congressionaly established national scenic trails: but iirc the land is managed locally, the park service where it passes through a park such as GSMNP, private landowners in places and the Baxter Park authority for that section. The route is not an owned by the Congress corridor such as the Blue Ridge Parkway. www.americantrails.org/resources/feds/NatTrSysOverview.html
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Post by High Sierra Fan on Mar 5, 2016 20:16:32 GMT -8
A 50 mile walk to the trailhead? That's doable right this moment isn't it? Get in your feet and walk.
The.
Talk.
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Post by tipiwalter on Mar 6, 2016 7:37:09 GMT -8
A 50 mile walk to the trailhead? That's doable right this moment isn't it? Get in your feet and walk. The. Talk. I have gotten dropped off on my trips 20 to 30 miles away from my trip's destination---two times in Mt Rogers in Virginia at the NRA headquarters on Highway 16 and hiked 30 miles to Wilburn Ridge in the Mt Rogers backcountry. Another time I went in 25 miles from the area I wanted to backpack by going in at Old Furnace road on the Tellico River and hiking all the way to Bob Stratton Bald in the Citico wilderness. Presently, I could leave my house and walk to my backpacking destinations but most of the hiking would be on roads actively used by cars and not yet closed to traffic. What's the fun in that? When these access roads are closed I'll be delighted to head out on a 50 mile approach trail. Why not? My trips are routinely 18 to 21 days long so I have the time to hike in (and out) from far away.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2016 8:27:52 GMT -8
When these access roads are closed I'll be delighted to head out on a 50 mile approach trail. But you've said that it is "comically easy" to close those roads. According to you, all that is necessary is to choose to close those roads. So TipiWalter, go ahead, make your choice, close those roads, and start walking the 50 miles. It's "comically easy" — by your own words. Just do it. Meanwhile, Baxter State Park and other land managers will be working on making sure hikers follow LNT in the backcountry.
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RumiDude
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Post by RumiDude on Mar 6, 2016 10:52:53 GMT -8
The move to limit the number of people starting the PCT per day worked to reduce the bolus. I think that there is not an AZDPCTKO this year is another way that is being looked at to reduce bunching on the trail. The PCT is different than the AT in that there are definite windows of opportunity to get through the high Sierra, whether going north bound or south bound. For a thru-hiker, that means definite windows starting the journey. That is what clumps the increased numbers of hikers.
From the PCTA:"Most northbounders start in mid-April through early May. Southbound hikers generally start in late June through early July. Many people want to start early. Beware. Snow covers sections of the trail in the spring and early summer. In Southern California, dangerous stretches blanket the trail within the first 200 miles of the border. If you head into the Sierra too early, you’ll face significant snow and stream crossing obstacles. In Washington, steep, risky snow slopes turn PCT travel into mountaineering well into early July.
Late starts also present problems. Southern California can be dangerously hot and your safety may be at risk. If you’re starting late and plan to do the whole trail as a thru-hike, you’ll face other problems. Are you fit and lucky enough to be able to sustain endurance power-hiking? Will winter shut down travel before you are done?
We recommend studying the conditions and starting around the “usual window” of opportunity."
Rumi
EDIT: Northbound vs Southbound
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Post by High Sierra Fan on Mar 6, 2016 10:55:05 GMT -8
Rumi- wouldn't the following winter do something similar for the AT? Tend to bunch the thruhikers at the "start" of the season for the entire trail? Doing the Hundred Mile Wilderness in a fall storm would look I would think... and so I find a similar timing recommendation is given for the AT: "To avoid crowds and winter conditions, the optimal time to start a northbound thru-hike is the window between April 15 and the first week of May. However, hikers do need to plan on reaching Baxter State Park in Maine before October 15 due to severe weather conditions that typically occur starting the increasing frequency in early October. Weather is the one of the most critical factors in determining when to start a thru-hike. Virtually every part of the Appalachian Trail has the potential to receive snowfall through early April. Mountains in the South, especially those above 5000 feet, can receive snowfall—sometimes deep—well into April. The highest peaks in Tennessee, North Carolina, and southwest Virginia receive an average of close to 100 inches of snowfall a year." appalachiantrail.org/home/explore-the-trail/thru-hiking/where-to-start
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RumiDude
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Post by RumiDude on Mar 6, 2016 11:09:42 GMT -8
Well, I have had long conversations with AT thrus who are also PCT thrus and they have all mentioned that the PCT is definitely more critical to plan the start time. YMMV
Rumi
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Post by tipiwalter on Mar 6, 2016 11:19:59 GMT -8
But you've said that it is "comically easy" to close those roads. According to you, all that is necessary is to choose to close those roads. So TipiWalter, go ahead, make your choice, close those roads, and start walking the 50 miles. It's "comically easy" — by your own words. Just do it. By comically easy I mean the decision to build these roads (the Cades Cove Motor Loop comes to mind) entailed a mark on a map and raising tax cash for the feat. Easy. Bring in the bulldozers and chainsaws and dynamite and have at it. Closing such roads is even easier: Decide to do it and move on. Who's in charge of highway construction? What's not comically easy is cleaning up the water in Flint, MI. Or making the area around Fukushima inhabitable. Or getting more Americans to walk and away from their automobiles. If I had my way I'd close dozens of roads I know about that serve no real purpose: 441 thru the GSMNP, Cades Cove, road up to Clingmans Dome, the road up to the top of Grandfather Mt, the Cherohala Skyway, Shenandoah's Skyline Drive, the road up to Mt Washington and the cog railway, the hundreds of jeep roads up to hundreds of peaks in the mountains of TN and NC; and the roads in Baxter. But I'm not in charge of highway construction and never will be. I'll be supremely grateful though if the head honchos decide to close these roads. Moral support on my part. And I'd be gratified to see the Rangers at Baxter work on closing its roads along with whatever permits or fees or regulations or vouchers of affidavits or writs or sworn statements or attestations or citations or summons they need to formulate to use against thruhikers.
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Post by High Sierra Fan on Mar 6, 2016 11:22:58 GMT -8
There's a golf course in Yellowstone?
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