|
Post by High Sierra Fan on Oct 31, 2019 7:58:38 GMT -8
Yah a lot of JMT that are traveling a distance are also centering on Mammoth with its choice of th: then going north, doing yarts and esta to Horseshoe Meadows and summiting Whitney from Crabtree then continuing to return to Mammoth and out to an esta to Reno.
I wouldn’t like the big breaks for travel in the middle of a backpack like that but travel logistics are what they are...,
|
|
toejam
Trail Wise!
Hiking to raise awareness
Posts: 1,795
|
Post by toejam on Oct 31, 2019 21:11:30 GMT -8
This will only cause more hikers without valid permits. If you hiked from Campo to Kearsarge Pass, bailed because of snow to the North Cascades and finished the trail SOBO, why would you bother trying to get a new permit? Wouldn't you say, "I've hiked 2300 miles - screw 'em."
|
|
|
Post by johntpenca on Nov 1, 2019 8:32:21 GMT -8
Good point. JMT hikers combined with PCT hikers adds up to a lot of hikers in that section mid-season.
|
|
almostthere
Trail Wise!
putting on my hiking shoes....
Posts: 696
|
Post by almostthere on Nov 1, 2019 10:09:51 GMT -8
This will only cause more hikers without valid permits. If you hiked from Campo to Kearsarge Pass, bailed because of snow to the North Cascades and finished the trail SOBO, why would you bother trying to get a new permit? Wouldn't you say, "I've hiked 2300 miles - screw 'em."
They do have some pretty set ideas about things.
In response to one of the washed out bridges being an impediment in 2017, I watched one of them mount a campaign on the Facebook group to "go out and build one ourselves." It was pointed out of course that the agency with jurisdiction would just tear it down again and possibly people would get fined, and hardly anyone was on board so he got no traction, but he was pretty insistent. So I'm sure there are those who ignore permits and rules anyway...
|
|
|
Post by greg1062 on Nov 1, 2019 11:10:45 GMT -8
almostthere That reminds me of a meeting I had with one thru hiker years ago at Gilbert Lake, on the Kearsarge Pass trail. He was hiking with his dog, so I asked him what he was doing with it while he was passing through the National Parks. His reply was along the lines of "we (thru hikers) are special, so they should let us not follow the rules that everyone else has to".
|
|
toejam
Trail Wise!
Hiking to raise awareness
Posts: 1,795
|
Post by toejam on Nov 1, 2019 12:01:10 GMT -8
I saw on facebook this year there were rangers telling hikers their permits weren't valid if they flipped, which was wrong. So there must have been pressure from some agencies for this.
I think the southern Sierra thing is mostly unenforceable. People will rarely get caught ignoring it.
The 15 SOBO/day limit appears to me to be more of an impact. The SOBO option is becoming much more popular because of the circus the southern 1000 miles has become in the springtime.
|
|
whistlepunk
Trail Wise!
I was an award winning honor student once. I have no idea what happened...
Posts: 1,446
|
Post by whistlepunk on Nov 1, 2019 18:21:05 GMT -8
Agree with toejam ^
It is unenforceable. It will an honor system to follow the new regs, and as we all know, many people have more system than honor.
I stick to the stretches that do not require any permit.
|
|
|
Post by johntpenca on Nov 1, 2019 18:49:38 GMT -8
Agree with toejam ^ It is unenforceable. Yup. Maybe issue permits for the PCT and JMT by lottery? They do it with hunting. Sad it would have to come to taht, but an alternative solution. Doesn't the current system allow 50 hikers/day out of Campo? That's a lot over a period of a month or so.
|
|
markskor
Trail Wise!
Mammoth Lakes & Tuolumne Meadows...living the dream
Posts: 651
|
Post by markskor on Nov 1, 2019 19:19:04 GMT -8
IMHO, the problem is overcrowding in the Southers Sierra section and is twofold. First, there is that stretch from Horseshoe Meadows South to Horseshoe Meadows North; the PCT here shares most of its length with the JMT...both trails merged/funneled into one 210 mile stretch. Secondly, some PCT hikers venture out for the high scenery; others are there just for the big miles. Possible solutions - suggest much stronger quotas on the PCT/JMT part, don't allow flipping on the original permit, and make use of a Theodore Solomon trail (TST) option. www.avenzamaps.com/maps/354771/theodore-solomons-trail-tst-all-maps-updated-june-2018Give the PCT an option/choice...either trail (JMT and TST) would still be considered the PCT, but half (those who can't do the heavy snow and are more concerned with the miles) would be directed to the TST and away from the JMT.
|
|
|
Post by High Sierra Fan on Nov 1, 2019 19:55:17 GMT -8
Agree with toejam ^ It is unenforceable. Yup. Maybe issue permits for the PCT and JMT by lottery? They do it with hunting. Sad it would have to come to taht, but an alternative solution. Doesn't the current system allow 50 hikers/day out of Campo? That's a lot over a period of a month or so. There is no permit for the John Muir Trail at the moment so there’s that. People out of any trailhead can go anywhere on their entry permit, taking into account the pass through versus Little Yosemite Valley differing quotas for the same entry, Happy Isles and the separate exit control over Donohue Pass for people entering at a whole variety of Yosemite trailheads who are then free to go anywhere including but not at all limited to Whitney Portal (aka the full length of the John Muir Trail plus some extra to exit). The PCT interagency permits issued by the PCTA are issued first come first served, though in two phases. www.pcta.org/discover-the-trail/permits/pct-long-distance-permit/The current Yosemite Wilderness Stewardship Plan process introductory material specifically highlighted the amount of corridor traffic coming north over Donohue impacting the JMT/PCT corridor outside of park control as a concern. How the process proposes to mitigate the impact is still to come. There’s an issue for sure: Horseshoe Meadows trailheads, a frequent suggestion as an alternate pair of JMT starts for a nobo alternative to either Yosemite or Whitney have a total of 100 entries per day available....then there’s all the Mammoth trailheads for the nice shortish at 35 or so mikes introductory route north into Yosemite.... all pounding down Lyell Canyon and overwhelming the 45 daily exits Yosemite manages. Not sure where it’s going, though my money is on a Little Yosemite Valley type camping restriction for Lyell Canyon at least.
|
|
almostthere
Trail Wise!
putting on my hiking shoes....
Posts: 696
|
Post by almostthere on Nov 1, 2019 20:04:24 GMT -8
IMHO, the problem is overcrowding in the Southers Sierra section and is twofold. First, there is that stretch from Horseshoe Meadows South to Horseshoe Meadows North; the PCT here shares most of its length with the JMT...both trails merged/funneled into one 210 mile stretch. Secondly, some PCT hikers venture out for the high scenery; others are there just for the big miles. Possible solutions - suggest much stronger quotas on the PCT/JMT part, don't allow flipping on the original permit, and make use of a Theodore Solomon trail (TST) option. www.avenzamaps.com/maps/354771/theodore-solomons-trail-tst-all-maps-updated-june-2018Give the PCT an option/choice...either trail (JMT and TST) would still be considered the PCT, but half (those who can't do the heavy snow and are more concerned with the miles) would be directed to the TST and away from the JMT. The Theodore Solomons is a really, really bad idea for folks who are just out to thru hike as a social experience and make miles. There are stretches of it that have not been maintained at all and will not for some time to come... navigational skills are an absolute requirement, no guthook app is going to rescue folks. The resupply options aren't there either. They'll not be bushwacking the section between Cassidy Crossing and Portugese Flat in shorts -- snake gaiters and a knack for finding trailbed by feel in the brush needed. The sections south of Mineral King are pretty much either miles of downed tree after downed tree, or no trail at all...
And, there is no bridge in Simpson Meadow. Watched some hikers get turned around by the river a couple times this year. I'm in the facebook group for the TST and there are maybe 2-5 people who do the whole TST per year, due to the very strenuous nature of it, the water crossing issues, and the unmaintained nature of the middle and southern sections. You want to do it in spring because it's lower and gets really hot - yet if you do it when the rivers are raging, you turn around or die.
|
|
|
Post by burntfoot on Nov 2, 2019 7:23:10 GMT -8
The year I hiked the PCT I saw one ranger in 6 months. And, he didn't ask to see my permit.
|
|
almostthere
Trail Wise!
putting on my hiking shoes....
Posts: 696
|
Post by almostthere on Nov 2, 2019 7:32:07 GMT -8
The year I hiked the PCT I saw one ranger in 6 months. And, he didn't ask to see my permit.
Which some will take as permission to not have a permit... the fact that staffing has been hit and miss. Meanwhile, my non-thru-hiking self sees rangers randomly 3-6 times per season, and intentionally more times than that because trail crew is where more than half my weekends are spent. Being a volunteer on a forest allows one to see that the few folks that a forest does have are constantly on the go, on the trail, fining people for fires where they shouldn't burn, educating folks in LNT, and yes, checking permits.
Which is to say - quotas are a good thing, because resource damage happens when there are too many people hammering the same campsites and creating new ones in an area. It's sucky work, removing fire rings full of glass, too. It's discouraging that we need permits at all but - people who don't truly value the wilderness do not care, and some of the ones who do care are ignorant/oblivious to what damage looks like. I can spot it because I'm in the habit of trying to remediate the damage.
|
|
|
Post by hikerchick395 on Nov 2, 2019 8:54:07 GMT -8
This year I picked up a guy "hiking" the PCT trail who bailed before JMT territory. He said that he was going to party in Mammoth for a few days, then fly home, come back later and resume his hike from "somewhere."
I met a group of hikers that came out of the high country over the Memorial Day weekend and said that they were staying in Bishop for 4 or 5 days then skipping a portion of what they would've hiked. Is this a through hike?
And I know someone who works at Reds Meadow. She said hikers are constantly begging for food or money down there. (Nothing, really, to do with through hiking...just commentary on hikers.)
As for rangers out on the trail...when we last did the JMT we got asked for our permit four times. It also got a second glance, too, as it was hand written. Power was out in Yosemite Valley when we picked up our permit.
|
|
almostthere
Trail Wise!
putting on my hiking shoes....
Posts: 696
|
Post by almostthere on Nov 2, 2019 12:06:09 GMT -8
Oh yes - I gave a ride to a Belgian woman, very young and extremely sunburned, tape all over her feet and moving really slowly. She caught the Florence ferry with us, we were coming out with a saw after taking trees out of the trail to MTR. She had started with her friends from Campo and they had left her far behind because she was struggling so much. Her intent was to hitch to Mammoth and catch up with them. We drove her to Vermillion where I think she spent two days sleeping in her tent and eating food, then hitched into Fresno (we were base camping there to work the trails around Edison).
Very, very different mindset. With friends like that, who needs strangers? After all the SAR operations looking for some poor soul whose friends had left them out there somewhere, it started to make me angry at the lack of awareness that some of the thrus show for the risks they are ignoring.
|
|