ErnieW
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Post by ErnieW on Apr 28, 2017 20:17:41 GMT -8
Here is a story that has a happy ending. She left notes/signs and moved to a place where she could pick up a cell although shaky. Here's another cell rescue from a while back. Here's one that shows first never hike without headlamps, that due to lot more hikers you may receive help and a cell phone can make a difference in a making rescue successful. Here is a long one on the down side of rescue technologies
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ErnieW
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Post by ErnieW on Apr 28, 2017 20:42:28 GMT -8
Sorry one more that shows the old school walk to known activity vs walk to cell access. Also the value of having some food in your car.
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Post by greenwoodsuncharted on Apr 29, 2017 8:44:56 GMT -8
While PLBs have the ability to make us safer in the back-country, they only do this if we take all of the precautions we would take if we didn't have them. For instance, not going out without adequate food/water because we believe we can be rescued at the push of a button. A recent story Here in SoCal, two mountaineers with more than enough experience to know better set out on a route that they could not retrace back down the mountain if their progress was blocked. When they began to doubt they could finish their loop before dark (having gotten a late start), they simply sat down and pressed the emergency button on their beacon and waited for rescue.
If we take unnecessary risks because a PLB lures us into a false sense of security, we can find ourselves in far more danger than we would if they didn't exist.
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ErnieW
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Post by ErnieW on Apr 29, 2017 10:00:13 GMT -8
If we take unnecessary risks because a PLB lures us into a false sense of security, we can find ourselves in far more danger than we would if they didn't exist. Every rescue also has a chance of injury/death for all the rescuers too. I found it interesting in the article I linked to about this that rescue organizations sometimes oppose making you pay for rescue. Their rationale is that if you charge then people will regard it as a service they are entitled to as long as they can pay. The guy in this article may not have made it without a cell rescue. What I like about the article is it gives so many details about number of rescuers (about 30!) the time of each leg of the rescue, etc.
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ErnieW
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Post by ErnieW on Apr 29, 2017 10:23:46 GMT -8
Just found the follow up to my first quote worst case scenario. I can't believe she left a SPOT behind hiking alone with bad sense of direction and no compass skills. From the article: Searchers find lost hikers within 12 hours 95 percent of the time, and within 24 hours in 98 percent of the cases.
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RumiDude
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Post by RumiDude on Apr 29, 2017 11:20:45 GMT -8
Truthfully, the real issue is avoiding the need for rescue. Mostly that involves learning backcountry skills and preparing properly for backcountry travel. While out, being aware and thus careful by reducing risks. Most accidents actually can be avoided. Kinda like driving defensively, it just needs to become part of SOP.
Having said that, I usually carry a day worth of extra food, just in case.
Rumi
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ErnieW
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Post by ErnieW on Apr 29, 2017 12:07:02 GMT -8
I'm a very defensive driver but I was recently sitting at a stop light and a guy in a Tahoe fell asleep at the wheel and plowed into me from behind at 35+mph. No avoiding it.
In reading some rescues online I read one on the InReach site about a woman who was hit by a slab of rock that came tumbling down from above her somewhere (rock version of a widow maker) and opened up her leg from thigh to ankle I believe. She credits her InReach with saving her life. There was no avoiding it.
I agree that reducing need for rescue is important but knowing about rescue if the need comes up and how fast it gets there is the real issue of this thread for me. I have also thrown in that maybe this knowledge needs to be updated from what was conventional wisdom even 10 years ago.
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zeke
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Post by zeke on Apr 29, 2017 12:12:55 GMT -8
Just keep in mind that it takes time to get the SAR ready to go. In my case, it took 2.5 hours to get the chopper airborne. If a serious wound has occurred, like that falling rock incident, someone else is going to need to stop the bleeding until medics can get there.
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Post by greenwoodsuncharted on Apr 29, 2017 12:15:06 GMT -8
ErnieW Very good point about the rescuers. Not to mention the cost. Though I do agree that rescue should be provided for free. My guess is that any town that consistently has hikers/mountaineers to rescue makes quite a few dollars off of people coming to their mountain. I am totally with you about having a PLB. I just think people need to make sure they conduct themselves as if they didn't have one.
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RumiDude
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Post by RumiDude on Apr 29, 2017 12:48:48 GMT -8
knowing about rescue if the need comes up and how fast it gets there is the real issue of this thread for me. I guess part of what I am saying is you can't predict that sort of thing. Thinking such as: "rescue will come within a day so I don't need to ration my food" is presumptuous. A couple years ago a PCT thru-hiker got off track and lost in an early snow storm in Washington state. He assumed he would be rescued after a couple days. Instead he was out there for over a week and finally determined he needed to rescue himself. He ended up walking out. Rumi
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ErnieW
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Post by ErnieW on Apr 29, 2017 16:27:13 GMT -8
I guess part of what I am saying is you can't predict that sort of thing. Thinking such as: "rescue will come within a day so I don't need to ration my food" is presumptuous. A couple years ago a PCT thru-hiker got off track and lost in an early snow storm in Washington state. He assumed he would be rescued after a couple days. Instead he was out there for over a week and finally determined he needed to rescue himself. He ended up walking out. You may not be able to definitively predict when rescue will come unless you make a solid communications connection and the rescuers tell you their schedule. If you can't do this how long would you presume you would need to ration your food?
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RumiDude
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Post by RumiDude on Apr 29, 2017 20:02:02 GMT -8
You may not be able to definitively predict when rescue will come unless you make a solid communications connection and the rescuers tell you their schedule. If you can't do this how long would you presume you would need to ration your food? Rescue is never certain. Everything depends on the unique situation. Weather is always a huge factor. Terrain is another. Relative remoteness can complicate things as well. How detailed of an itinerary was left AND the ability of the person calling SAR to communicate the information left for them. Say you were leaving on a week long itinerary and on day two you were in a very low visibility situation and got off your intended itinerary. By the time you figured out where you were, you realized you were in a different drainage and trying to complete your intended itinerary you would be called in as missing. What should you do? (Actual situation which I was involved in the SAR effort.) What would you do if on a remote portion of an Alaskan Island you discovered your SPOT device, which was actively pinging your location to your safety observers, had become dislodged from where you attached it to your pack and you were unable to find it? (Another actual situation I was involved in.) What would you do if you fell down a slope several hundred feet below the trail and were injured severely enough that you were unable to climb back up the slope but might be able to make it out through the valley below you? This was on the third day of a six day trip and nobody was going to report you missing till the evening three days following. And even then they would not have boots on the ground till the morning four days hence. Stay put or attempt self rescue? (Again another actual situation.) Everything is dependent. I know of many other situations and could envision many more. I know this, I am more likely to be proactive rather than passive in those situations. I prepare to be proactive rather than passive. I am now more likely to be proactively cautious, due to my past experiences and knowledge, and avoid situations which are potentially dangerous. I am much more aware of how things could go wrong and plan accordingly. So to directly answer your question, I would ration my food for as long as I figured I needed for self extraction. If I was incapacitated to the extent of being totally immobile and forced to simply wait for rescue, I would ration my food to life sustaining levels. Rumi ~the proactive~Dude
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ErnieW
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Post by ErnieW on Apr 30, 2017 4:56:09 GMT -8
I prepare to be proactive rather than passive. Would you carry a SPOT or InReach to be proactive and do you? I have done a lot of solo hiking. A lot of it with a cell. Keeping it dry and charged plus the weight and finding signals has a bit of a hassle but the added safety of being able to update my location and future itinerary with my base crew was proactive safety for me. Now that I have a family, if I was to be able to solo hike again, I would not go without a SPOT or InReach plus my cell. I guess one thing I am interested in hearing in this thread is a cell with power almost the 11th E these days? Or maybe more generally Communications the 11th to include sat devices.
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toejam
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Post by toejam on Apr 30, 2017 6:30:09 GMT -8
Can it be assumed there is a fairly reliable safety/rescue net in place now where most people hike that can provide help within a day or less? A satellite beacon can probably get you rescued in a day, depending on the availability of rescuer resources. I'd expect to spend a night in the cold if I had to use it. Around here there's no cell coverage in the mountains and lots of seldom-used trails. Your body would be eaten by buzzards for a week before they got around to looking for you.
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ErnieW
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Post by ErnieW on Apr 30, 2017 8:16:28 GMT -8
A satellite beacon can probably get you rescued in a day, depending on the availability of rescuer resources. I'd expect to spend a night in the cold if I had to use it. Also depending on weather. But this is another thing communications tech can give you; possible weather forecast updates. Also that is a rule for me even for a afternoon hike; be able to survive the night. Around here there's no cell coverage in the mountains and lots of seldom-used trails. Your body would be eaten by buzzards for a week before they got around to looking for you. If you don't mind me asking, where is here? Also when you say no cell coverage do you mean that literally or just in the majority of places you hike along. For example if you went up to a summit there is still no coverage? I day hike in Harriman park in in NYC area a lot. There are lots of points along trails where there is no coverage but if you go up then no problem. The area is pretty saturated with towers.
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