desert dweller
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Power to the Peaceful...Hate does not create.
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Post by desert dweller on Aug 20, 2019 13:40:20 GMT -8
Layover area/zero day place, Hiker Heaven, is up for sale. It's in Agua Dulce, CA. The current owners are moving to Washington. They have hosted PCT thru-hikers in Agua Dulce, CA, for 22 years, with dozens of hikers passing through every day for months during the summer thru-hiking season. Donna and Jeff have been wonderful trail angels in the PCT community, providing a well-established hostel for hikers to rest, launder, feed, and resupply.
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sarbar
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After being here since 2001...I couldn't say goodbye yet!
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Post by sarbar on Aug 20, 2019 19:00:23 GMT -8
I gotta agree. It is time for this to slide into happy memory lane. I did trail angeling with HoosierDaddy in 2009 - when there was so fewer people out there. It was a fun summer (I was pregnant and not up to our usual long hikes that year) but now? It isn't needed.
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Hungry Jack
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Living and dying in 3/4 time...
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Post by Hungry Jack on Aug 21, 2019 4:47:38 GMT -8
Are you guys saying these angel groups are enabling a new breed of through hiker that doesn’t believe in self preparation and reliance, increasing risk?
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desert dweller
Trail Wise!
Power to the Peaceful...Hate does not create.
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Post by desert dweller on Aug 21, 2019 7:48:18 GMT -8
I'm all for people getting out on the trail and doing short hikes, long hikes, thru hikes, day hikes, overnights, half-days, any viable reason is good. The younger demographic on the Triple Crown hikes may act like they are entitled and part of a group (perhaps, even a movement) that includes tools to make the event somewhat easier. But, it's still a hard hike which encompasses learning the skills it takes to spend time in the wilderness. Even if the hiker only makes it for a week, they have built up knowledge, experienced what it like to not be in complete control, how to apply lessons to everyday life and learned how to deal with the unexpected and, hopefully, use that information when they do another hike.
But, it seems to me, that the most important part is that the large number of younger hikers who at least attempt the hike, have now experienced the true wilderness and know that those large expanses of emptiness are rare and that those areas have to be protected and expanded. Without that experience, the idea of wilderness is just something they read about or pretend to do in a virtual reality device while sitting on their couch. It take feet on the ground to cultivate that love for the outdoors which springs from the heart whenever someone reaches the ridge or peaks out or sees the forest fauna or realizes the expanse of the night sky or have come to terms with their limitations. Does it really matter that hikers try to do whatever it takes maybe make it a little easier by lightening up the pack or that caring people set up remote caches for anyone to use or open their land and homes to strangers and giving hikers something to strive to and motivate their next step to get done with the section they're on so that they can do the next one?
Seems like a relatively small price for exposing people to a world they were, basically, clueless about and now they can share the experience with friends and give talks at their local sport supply store and even get involved with the community to preserve that small tract of forest because they have learned that even fallow land has inherent value as it is.
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desert dweller
Trail Wise!
Power to the Peaceful...Hate does not create.
Posts: 6,291
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Post by desert dweller on Aug 21, 2019 10:08:13 GMT -8
Practically everything you mentioned discourages people from getting out. Sure, there are methods that work better than others and those lessons can be learned through experience and listening to others. But, finding reasons to disdain new hikers does nothing to get them to appreciate and value of the back country. We all went through a learning curve and have our way. Let people get out. The trails will recover. The bad taste that comes from being told they are wrong and shouldn't be there does nothing for the better good in the long run. Ed Abbey said that the wilderness doesn't need friends, it needs defenders. But, defenders of the wilderness have to experience what it is all about. That experience comes from putting boots on the ground, making mistakes and learning from them. There are those who only see value in something that can be bought and sold. Put efforts into educating those folks rather than telling potential allies they are not welcome because of the color of tents or what they eat and how they prepare it. I think we are all looking at the same mountain peak but just from different approaches. The goals are the same.
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geosp
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Post by geosp on Aug 21, 2019 15:06:52 GMT -8
In talking about climbing mountains, Ed Viesturs said that climbing was dangerous, if it were not so it would not be worth doing. Similarly I would say that backpacking is difficult. If it were not so it would not be worth doing. Whats the difference between standing at a roadside pullout staring at a beautiful mountain/desert/coastal/prarrie scene and standing at a switchback after a long strenuous trek staring a a beautiful wilderness scene? I may not be able to put it into words but there's a difference as wide as the world. Even my friend crippled from polio, who listened to my descriptions of my hiking adventures, understood that difference. You nailed it right there. I think a great part of my own enjoyment from hiking comes from planning and being as self sufficient as is practical. Solitude and self-reliance offers a degree of challenge that appeals. Adds to my appreciation of family and friends. The increased popularity and apparent proliferation of trail angels and 'caches' on the PCT would take some of the gloss off for me.
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Post by johntpenca on Aug 21, 2019 16:45:42 GMT -8
Long distance hiking is different things for different people. It's the individual hiker who decides how they want to approach a long distance hike. I haven't done one, but know several who have and in the past read a lot of trailjounals for the AT, PCT and CDT. Some approach it for the reasons RumiDude wrote. Others, particularly on the AT, approach it as a moving party. I'm with desert dweller on this; as long as they are getting out there and practice appropriate caretaking of the wilderness, I could care less if they stop at every trail town, have van support or what have you. Its all good and who am I to judge their approach to the trail. It may not be as "pure" an experience as some seek, but they are still getting out there and doing the miles and seeing the sights. An analogy is "sport" and "gym" versus "trad" climbers. Trad clinbers tend to look down on sport climbers. I don't really care what people do as long as they do it with an ethical approach to the environment.
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swmtnbackpacker
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Back but probably posting soon under my real name ... Rico Sauve
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Post by swmtnbackpacker on Aug 21, 2019 17:14:17 GMT -8
It's time to end this on the PCT, IMO. This will be good for the future. @@ years ago it made sense but now it subtlely dependence .. Scout and Frodo [and] Casa de Luna ends [too]. It’s mostly the numbers as the required porto-potty bills increased. Now there’s 1000-2000 where there used to be 50, though the desert still causes over 50% to quit by greater Los Angeles (overheard from trail angels counting register books). Not to worry though. There’ll be increasing “for profit” support like the AT, as business can better ration resources. Even when HH closes, there’s a KOA on the trail (9 miles before HH) open to hikers .... with a swimming pool, ... so don’t shed too many tears (I’m sure Backpacker mag will have an angst filled article though). There’s also cell coverage in the area and rideshare to the 6 Flags over California area with hotels, restaurants, etc.. The experience will just cost a little more. A D D : On the other ends.. - When Casa De Luna retires (~2 days north of HH), there’s the Rock Inn. Sure they won’t mind selling hundreds more burgers.
- Never went to Scout and Frodo’s, but there’s at least 4 city buses which drop off a mile from the southern terminus (start) ... hikers just need to cough up the $10 and maybe stay at a cheap hotel/hostel the night before, using San Diego’s great light rail -> bus system ... and stop whining
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Hungry Jack
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Living and dying in 3/4 time...
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Post by Hungry Jack on Aug 22, 2019 3:57:34 GMT -8
I assume that the increasing (apparently) number of hikers using the PCT while banking on trail magic for basic needs are mostly Millennials? Not trying to pick on anyone but this seems to be a narrative.
It would be consistent with a generation that has helped give rise to the sharing economy. It is an economy that provides through a largely informal network of services provided by individuals. The currency is different but the mechanism is similar.
Of course, millennials have a reputation of acting entitled to special treatment after being fed this dogma in their formative years. Maybe helicoptering parents have stunted the development of problem-solving skills, which adds to the disconnect we might feel. These seem to be the traits that are manifesting in this issue.
I don’t want to beat up on Millennials but these stereotypes are in direct conflict with the trail ethos that I think we here all espouse—self reliance, thorough preparedness, adequate resources, and accountability to others through accountability for one’s self.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2019 5:06:44 GMT -8
Several years ago whiles my wife and I were hiking in the Russian Wilderness, we stopped to have a 10AM coffee break. We had stopped by a stream and after boiling up some water, we were discussing what to do with the remainder of the coffee when a PCT hiker came by. 'Hey, you want some coffee?' As he was drinking the coffee another PCT hiker came by and we offered to boil him some coffee too. By the time we moved on we had served up 16 cups of coffee and we had, for a short time, become PCT trail angels. Good times.
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desert dweller
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Power to the Peaceful...Hate does not create.
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Post by desert dweller on Aug 22, 2019 5:10:19 GMT -8
By the time we moved on we had served up 16 cups of coffee and we had, for a short time, become PCT trail angels. Careful. You may create expectations. Certainly can't have that.
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swmtnbackpacker
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Back but probably posting soon under my real name ... Rico Sauve
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Post by swmtnbackpacker on Aug 22, 2019 5:50:04 GMT -8
I assume that the increasing (apparently) number of hikers using the PCT while banking on trail magic for basic needs are mostly Millennials? Not trying to pick on anyone but this seems to be a narrative. It would be consistent with a generation that has helped give rise to the sharing economy. It is an economy that provides through a largely informal network of services provided by individuals. The currency is different but the mechanism is similar. Of course, millennials have a reputation of acting entitled to special treatment after being fed this dogma in their formative years. Maybe helicoptering parents have stunted the development of problem-solving skills.. I don’t want to beat up on Millennials but these stereotypes are in direct conflict with the trail ethos that I think we here all espouse—self reliance, thorough preparedness, adequate resources, and accountability to others through accountability for one’s self. The trail skews young, so many are in fact millennials, though all age groups are present, ... but many are foreigners too (with appropriate visas). There’s still TAs but they act as informal AirBnBs or informal “Ubers” ... payment in form of a $20 is expected. So there’s actual currency and only minor sharing I’ve seen (spotting someone a bandage, ... maybe extra water or unwanted food). Any serial moochers are actually called out and shunned as many hikers are on a budget.. that life lesson is unavoidable. Many businesses and quasi-businesses in rural California are, in fact, now reliant on thru-hiker types and serious section-hikers (also weekend motorcyclists, bicyclists, windshield tourists, etc... to add to what RumiDude said about trail business). That said, in large populations there’s going to be turd-birds. A formal business model can probably deal with it better than “rules of the road, er.. trail”. I think it’ll attract more formal business structure, ... Example: saw some AirBnB’s in tourist haven Wrightwood with a slight PCT discount. An arrangement like that protects everyone and the owner could take the property “off” for a night or 2 if cold hard cash (sans fees) is desired by both parties
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nic
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Post by nic on Aug 22, 2019 9:33:29 GMT -8
I like the idea of trail magic. Is trail magic ruining the thru hiker experience by creating an entitled audience? I dont think so. There will be some that come to expect a ride, a treat true or a water cache but others are genuinely thankful for the cold soda fresh piece of fruit or tail gating style meal at a random point on the trail. Sure there will always be entitled individuals (as is true in society in general and not bound by age) but i dont think all thru hikers can be lumped into that category. I believe that the experience of offering a little trail magic is beneficial for both parties. The givers are giving back and supporting hiking, the trail and wilderness in general. Chances are they were once hikers and are giving back because they either dont have the time, the resources or the physical ability to do the trail themselves. Going out of the way to do something nice for someone else and paying it forward is more of what we need in the world IMHO. On that note, I just came across an article today that illustrates taking trail magic to a whole new level ... "Morgan’s Diner might be the only eating establishment in the world that offers three meals a day, full-body massages, postal services, yard games, and a DJ—and doesn’t charge its customers a dollar. It only happens one weekend each summer in the middle of the woods somewhere along the Pacific Crest Trail. " link
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Post by johntpenca on Aug 22, 2019 10:53:18 GMT -8
Well the topic is about trail angels, not the hikers. And what has happened is that the actions of trail angels has had a negative effect on the PCT. Hikers don't need to be coddled or catered to. But that is exactly what many trail angels currently do. And at this time trail angels are almost entirely superfluous. As swmtnbackpacker mentions above there are actually commercial alternatives available now for transport, feeding, and sheltering hikers. The PCT is for hikers, not trail angels. As much as trail angels may think they are needed, they are not. I have half joked that trail angels are killing the PCT. It's time for the vast majority of them to back away and leave the trail to the hikers. For this being a discussion on trail angels. your points seem to center on the hikers and their experience. We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one; to me trail angels have little impact on the trails themselves. You are entitled to your opinion. Some folks just enjoy the opportunity to hang around thru hikers for a while. The hiker's enthusiasm and story's are infectious. It's a lot of fun. To say the angels are destroying the trail experience is akin to saying interstates and the restaurants and hotels on the interstates ruin the experience of crossing the country by horse and wagon. I am quite aware of the commercial facilities along the long trails. And I don't really care if the angels take away business from commercial operations. Seems the impact would be negligible and is a sideline for the commercial operations as their primary source of income is from non-thru hikers. If businesses along the PCT expect to be profitable solely off PCT hikers, they are in for a surprise. It is the hiker's choice to choose their hike.
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Post by johntpenca on Aug 22, 2019 12:33:15 GMT -8
Postscript to the above, I will go along with one train of thought that seems to be being espoused. Former AT hikers apparently (in my experience) expect the PCT to be as well catered to as the AT, which has some form of hostel, resupply or other amenity practically ever few miles, with a few exceptions. I really would prefer the PCT and CDT do not go down that road.
But is should be understood the goals of thru hikers are not the same a your average backpacker. They are out there to get from one border to another.
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