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Post by absarokanaut on Jul 13, 2019 8:01:42 GMT -8
www.localnews8.com/news/hiker-flown-to-eirmc-after-1200-foot-fall/1093520219?fbclid=IwAR1U1K27J-O17x43_9mC_Lx0npf2r-4zH3uVcH2Kl12SKclP63qwF8RJ_5cI don't know if this man had crampons and an ice axe but I suspect he did not. If he did he apparently was not knowledgeable about how to self arrest. None of us are psychics, depending on our theatre of adventure we often don't KNOW if we will NEED things like Bearspray, etc. I know a lot of you folks count grams responsibly. I'm just suggesting perhaps we need better signage, etc., for the far less than critical thinkers among us. Is there a productive way, talking points, etc., to get our more ignorant and less rational friends to understand they should hike their own hike but do it with far better preparation? Should we mandate hiking cards that insure backcountry rescue if necessary? ....
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rebeccad
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Writing like a maniac
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Post by rebeccad on Jul 13, 2019 8:35:26 GMT -8
Yeah, not much detail there, but probably more snow than he’d bargained for. It’s hard for people traveling from the hot lowlands to believe that there’s enough snow up there to require what amounts to winter equipment. You can post info and conditions, but you can’t make people read it and change their plans after coming so far to do a particular hike. I think one of the hardest things must be to make a last-minute change in itinerary. Limited permits in popular areas make it all the more likely that people will proceed when they shouldn’t, because they can’t just switch over to another trail nearby. Not sure what the solution to that is, other than for myself, staying away from areas that are that hard to get permits for (I’m not saying that was what was going on in this case, but it’s a pretty safe guess).
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Post by autumnmist on Jul 13, 2019 13:16:04 GMT -8
It's hard to imagine a 1200' fall and still being alive, especially since he landed on rock outcroppings. The article didn't indicate what injuries he sustained, and I don't think I want to guess.
Stepping aside for a moment from preparedness in hiking and climbing to preparedness generally, there's also an inappropriate (or in denial?) approach to hurricane evacuation. Last night a LA resident said he saw no reason for evacuation. I wonder if he'll feel the same today or tomorrow.
Is it possible that some people are just unable to comprehend how close we/they can be to a disaster, and prepare for potentialities?
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desert dweller
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Post by desert dweller on Jul 13, 2019 18:27:22 GMT -8
Is it possible that some people are just unable to comprehend how close we/they can be to a disaster, and prepare for potentialities? When individuals don't take the time to research their destination, then they've chosen to be ignorant. All the information those guys needed to ensure a successful hike was available on line. Short term weather, long term weather trends, current conditions and feedback from others who have just been in the area can all be found. You can tap into government or private weather monitoring stations. Using apps like Weatherunderground you have access to thousands of online stations across the country. Whether the issue was experience, ability or preparedness, we really don't know.
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Post by High Sierra Fan on Jul 13, 2019 19:25:21 GMT -8
The park’s small enough they could have been dayhikers, who too often get surprised by higher conditions and as they don’t need wilderness permits don’t get the benefit of that last minute conditions update.
And if they were doing a canyon to canyon loop snd envountered chancy condition after completing most of it: there’s the additional reluctance to backtrack. That got two men killed in Hetch Hetchy when Wapama Falls was totally washing over the footbridge that crosses beneath it: but they’d been on the last few miles of a multi day loop... so they chanced it neither were recovered for many months.
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Hungry Jack
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Living and dying in 3/4 time...
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Post by Hungry Jack on Jul 14, 2019 8:54:02 GMT -8
Amazing that he survived the fall (thus far). That is a LONG ways to tumble.
That hike looks spectacular based on some GIS. Under dry conditions, it is very likely at class I jaunt. But put snow and ice on it, and the game changes. Lots of snow left up high, and someone coming from another continent could easily be unaware.
But true wisdom is knowing what you don't know. Checking trail conditions in advance in the high country is always a "must do."
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davesenesac
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Post by davesenesac on Jul 14, 2019 10:55:57 GMT -8
It's hard to imagine a 1200' fall and still being alive, especially since he landed on rock outcroppings. The article didn't indicate what injuries he sustained, and I don't think I want to guess...
At skiing resorts, a few people fall regularly on relatively smooth steep advanced snow slopes then slide long distances without receiving any injuries. Much depends on whether or not slopes below are free of objects like rock or trees. Even without obstacles below if at high speed one starts tumbling, it is easy to injure ligaments, tendons, or break bones. Tumbling often occurs when a sliding person tries to self arrest with too much force instead of just doing so gradually.
As for information, in most cases I don't think we need more information but rather the less experienced need to be encouraged, especially in this Internet information era to do their own homework. While most of us are embarrassed by not being prepared for activities in general, there have always been significant numbers of people that tend to be overly dependent on being led by others instead of being self dependent and sufficient. Even though resources may be available, they won't tend to use such and rather will go to whatever activities and expect those there to enlighten them. Of course that behavior is more general than just for outdoor hiking activities.
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Post by High Sierra Fan on Jul 14, 2019 11:21:53 GMT -8
^this.
Which is why microspikes/crampons can be a very mixed blessing. They’re a self arrest prevention tool. Once off your feet and sliding the training is keep those spikes WAY off the snow or risk getting flipped into the air to start a really injury generating pinwheel down the slope. A self arrest is initiated by gradually applying the ice axe.
That’s why I’ve never liked the Trail Crest snowchute on Whitney: the runout is straight into a huge amount of boulders. The glissade is tempting given the tedium of the 99 switchbacks but especially with the debris embedded along the surface from higher freeze thaw getting tripped and starting a long uncontrolled fall into rocks just hadn’t ever seemed worth it. Possibly also as other than once I’ve always exited there from a long ways off so I was benefiting from trail fitness and a relatively empty pack as the majority of my good was gone.
Dayhikers tend not to be in the same situation and that can lead to trouble. Overall the Tetons are a great place, so much terrific landscape within relatively close range. But that’s also it’s peril.
That last paragraph is why I’m usually amused by people who insist “groups are safer” for backcountry travel. That’s igniting the reality being pointed out: blindly following a “leader” is a very sure way to get in trouble. The more experienced in s group are s great resource: but often those attracted to groups are of the passive inclination who just want yo follow, and won’t exert the effort to extract knowledge from others in the group.
Groups are imho far from any guarantee of safety. Just like solo isn’t a death wish.
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Post by trinity on Jul 14, 2019 11:36:45 GMT -8
Groups are imho far from any guarantee of safety. Just like solo isn’t a death wish. Amen.
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Post by Lamebeaver on Jul 14, 2019 17:13:33 GMT -8
There are two ways to learn....from others, or from experience, otherwise known as "the school of hard knocks"
If you don't learn one way, you WILL learn the other way, and for some that lesson comes at a cost.
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Post by absarokanaut on Jul 20, 2019 8:48:06 GMT -8
Paintbrush Divide is about the middle of the loop which is a 17 plus mile day.
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amac
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Post by amac on Jul 22, 2019 5:24:32 GMT -8
I can attest to the “stupidity” of a low lander taking risks he shouldn’t. Several years ago, my family and I were hiking the Siyeh Pass to Sunrift Gorge trail. We made it to the Pass with no issue, had lunch and then weather in the distance sent us on our way. Moments into our descent, with thunder in the distance, we hit a snowfield covering what should have been switchbacks. I made the decision to continue down. No ice axe or crampons, just hiking poles and digging in. My wife was unsure of my decision. At the time, my boys were 13 and 11. Visibly scared, they followed my footsteps and we weaved our way down the snowfield. Probably not the best decision, but it’s one of our most memorable hikes! Yeah, stupid is as stupid does! Why did I do it? I didn’t travel all that way to turn back. And, I have an overly confident personality. Aside from the slick, icy snow patch, rocky patches were visible. I thought any slide would be short and I believed the snowmelt wasn’t deep. Would I do it again? I’d have to consider all variables, but most likely, I would proceed to cross. Tragic story for the guy. I hope he recovers from his injuries. This is a shot of what we were looking at.
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amac
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Post by amac on Jul 22, 2019 5:46:53 GMT -8
Here’s a vantage point looking back at the snow covered pass.
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Westy
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Post by Westy on Jul 22, 2019 6:04:42 GMT -8
Siyeh Pass to Sunrift Gorge trail. Where is this?
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amac
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Post by amac on Jul 22, 2019 6:58:04 GMT -8
GNP.
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