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Post by BorderCollieMike on Mar 5, 2017 10:17:45 GMT -8
I can't tell you how much I appreciate finding this group. I have backpacked for 40+ years beginning with a Kelty Tioga and a Svea stove. I thought I had best practices down. After my first hour browsing this forum I started to realize how much I didn't know. Gear changes so fast anymore. Now I have the ultralight bug. So, new gear! I'm having trouble understanding the draw of the spirit stoves. I got both the Whitebox and the Trangia stoves and ran some indoor boil tests comparing them against my Gigastove. Results are below. Why carry a methanol stove? Seems like I need about 2oz of fuel for each meal (everything is just add boiling water). So if I cook twice a day, that's 3 - 4 oz per day or a minimum of 16 oz of fuel for a five day trip (my trips are usually 5 - 10 days). Between the length of time it takes to boil water using meth, and the weight of the meth, seems like the Giga stove would be more efficient (ignoring the weight of the empty canister you have to carry out.) My data below is for boiling 16oz of 55 degree water indoors in a 60F shop in a MSR aluminum pot. Yeah, not exactly outdoor conditions, but the comparisons should hold across the stoves, right? Also, I'm not sure I got the Trangia running properly, it seems like it should be faster. I appreciate your thoughts on this.
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Post by trinity on Mar 5, 2017 10:30:28 GMT -8
Welcome, Mike, and great job on the stove comparison.
For me, part of the attraction of alcohol stoves is aesthetic. I enjoy the simplicity of design and use. Because an alky has no moving parts, it is very difficult for anything to go wrong, no valves, o rings, pressurizing, etc. They work well across a wide range of conditions (as long as they are legal). And the visual aspect of measuring out the alcohol means I know exactly how much fuel I have and how much I need for a given trip, there is not nearly as much guestimating as there is with a butane canister. Yes, my giga is faster, and most of the time lighter and easier to deal with, and it still gets some use. But for the majority of my backpacking trips these days, the Caldera Cone is my stove of choice.
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Post by BorderCollieMike on Mar 5, 2017 12:49:04 GMT -8
I missed the 6 inch pot requirement. But my test pot was 6 inches anyway. I think the windscreen I used might have been a little too tight - I couldn't get 1 inch of space all the way around. Maybe that explains the poor performance. Also, one thing I really appreciate about the alcohol stoves is the quiet. No shocking silence when you turn them off.
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swiftdream
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Post by swiftdream on Mar 5, 2017 12:56:37 GMT -8
One of the draws for me for my Whitebox stove over my Snow Peak giga is...I don't have a huge pile of empty canisters to put in the landfill every month. And I don't have to worry about how empty a canister is and if I might should take another full one so I don't run out. The alcohol container is easily topped off after every outing. Fuel is less expensive too and we do a lot of burns. I also really like the fact that the Whitebox stove is completely silent and overall very simple. Don't get me wrong, I like my Giga stove too but those are the drawbacks for me. It now rides in my vehicle as backup and for use when a fire ban might be in place putting my Whitebox stove on the forbidden list. That is rare though.
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gabby
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Post by gabby on Mar 5, 2017 12:58:07 GMT -8
seems like the Giga stove would be more efficient (ignoring the weight of the empty canister you have to carry out.) Carry weight and compactness of setup are 2 of the reasons I often carry an alcohol stove. As trinity noted, there are also the issues of simplicity, reliability and ease of use. There are a lot of ways to look at this comparison, however, and that is why the debate and comparisons have raged on everywhere for what seems forever. IOW: you can't really ignore real life "use factors" like "carry out weight" - the proof is in the actual use, and that is, in fact, where you'll find which you prefer. For a quick overnight in the local state park, I've taken canisters, and even white gas stoves - just for the hell of it. (There wasn't a lot of other stuff other than the basics in my pack.) But, most of the time, I prefer alcohol. It's also quieter, if that's an issue for you. Used with the right pot, you'll probably find that there's little difference in the "speed factor". In fact, I doubt that's ever really important in actual use. You make adjustments in style. You did catch the esoteric fact that you need a wider pot with trangia's and most alcohol stoves, right? At least a 6 inch diameter pot for best results. A good point. You gave "Snowpeak Ti Cup & Lid" in your spreadsheet snapshot, but that could mean a lot of things: I myself have a dozen or more Snowpeak pots (with lids) running from a 450ml cup to a (no longer manufactured) 1.8L titanium "stewpot" with a bail. The range of width to height of these pots is pretty large. I have an Evernew "bellied" 800ml pot Evernew "bellied" 800ml pot for the reason that its widened bottom is a better fit for most of my alcohol burners.
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zeke
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Post by zeke on Mar 5, 2017 13:07:18 GMT -8
You could run your numbers on this I did just that with a Pocket Rocket vs a White Box. first, I only boil 1 pint of water per day, as I drink no hot fluids, and eat cold breakfasts and lunches. I can bring a pint of water to a boil with 1 ounce of alcohol, or less, depending on wind. I no longer camp out in snow. I can tell you from experience, I can go for a week with 8 ounces of alcohol. The bottle weighs 1 ounce. When counting ounces, you have to include the weight of the fuel container. That is 5 ounces of steel you are carrying every day, even when empty.
While it doesn't seem like it is significant, carrying an extra 5-6 ounces per day, if you are counting ounces, they all matter. I'll stack up my WB against most other stoves, and be happier. I have used many types, and have sold or given away all but the WB.
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ErnieW
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Post by ErnieW on Mar 6, 2017 6:08:35 GMT -8
I wasn't sure, was your boiling test with or without the lid on? The lid on makes a big difference.
Also be careful with the windscreen being too tight with canisters. It would would be very bad if you overheated the canister to failure.
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Post by BorderCollieMike on Mar 6, 2017 7:21:42 GMT -8
Thanks for commenting Ernie. I should have included that info in my description. Yes, the pot was a 6" dia. MSR aluminum pot with a well-fitting lid for all tests. The windscreen on the canister test is from my MSR wisperlite stove and relatively large. I've been using it with the Snow Peak Giga stove for years. I used that same windscreen on the Trangia stove/stand, but I used the WB screen on the WB stove. I'm really impressed with the WB stove - very quiet and relatively fast. Thanks all for the comments. I can appreciate the aesthetic of using alcohol over a canister gas stove. I have a five day trip coming up and I plan to try and use the WB stove exclusively. I'll see how that works. I'll pack the Giga stove in the bottom with a half empty canister as a backup - just in case. It's still 25F around here and yet another snow storm in the forecast. Sometimes the canister stove, in those conditions, gives off a cheery hiss of a promise of warm food and coffee in the early morning hours.
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rebeccad
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Post by rebeccad on Mar 6, 2017 8:40:19 GMT -8
I haven't done a controlled home test for a long time, but my field use gives me a different take on the weight of the WB and fuel. I typically have been doing food for 4, which means boiling a full 1.5L pot breakfast and dinner, and often an extra bit. For a 6-night trip, I usually bring about 35 oz of fuel, in 3 bottles (so the empty-bottle weight is about 4 oz, making a total of 39 oz) (Note that this is usually more fuel than is needed. I consider an extra ounce or so to be a hedge against disasters or extra-wet or cold weather that demands more hot drinks. One thing you will never do with your canister is spill your fuel bottle, too). Now, Zeke's calculator comes up with 34oz for the same usage with a Pocket Rocket, but the stove weighs 3.4 oz to my less than 2 oz for the whole WB set-up (I use a snuffer can which currently weighs more than the stove. Am thinking of fixing that problem!). That means the difference is 4 oz--the weight of one empty canister. So by the halfway point of the trip, I'll be carrying less weight with my WB than I would with the PR. Since I made the switch to alcohol not from a PR but from the old Whisperlite (nice misnomer, that!), the math was even easier! There's another aspect of the alcohol stove that hasn't been mentioned, but that does matter to me, and that's the environmental cost. I like avoiding fossil fuels, though in these amounts it really doesn't matter. But I also like that I'm not using canisters, which are recyclable only in some places, and are always going to have more waste than my alky fuel. In truth, though, I will probably invest in a Pocket Rocket or similar at some point, just because there are so often restrictions in the Sierra these days, which make my alky stove illegal. I will also have to redo my math as we are more and more going to be doing trips with 2 people, rather than 4. Maybe even change my pot! No matter what stove you are using, I have found that I can often greatly reduce boil times by filling my black pot on first arriving in camp and setting it in the sun. Last summer we were doing pretty short days, and it was hot, so I could set it out all afternoon and found the water was tepid by dinner-time--a real savings. (I could then use that extra fuel for more hot drinks in the morning Another time I might cut my fuel amounts a bit if I anticipate similar conditions).
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crawford
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Post by crawford on Mar 6, 2017 12:52:08 GMT -8
I'm typically at 1 oz of fuel to bring 25 oz of water to a boil in about 5 minutes. I use a DIY stove, and that number is not in sub-freezing temps. I'll assume a little more fuel and a little more time for that.
For a 4 day trip I usually have 10-12 oz of fuel and my DIY alky stove and it is lighter than my Jetboil. I have nothing against my Jetboil and take it sometimes, also use a Kovea sometimes, but the DIY stove is simple, light, small, and...I guess I just like it. I've not yet suffered from fuel leak in my pack or other issues with it.
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tigger
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Post by tigger on Mar 6, 2017 23:01:15 GMT -8
I run 1 oz. max of fuel on my Whitebox Alcohol stove for my pot, enough water for my Mt. House and a cup of coffee. No moving parts, no maintenance, and no canister weight - just a water bottle to carry the fuel. Mind you, I have hiked in areas that alcohol stoves are allowed.
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Post by rustyshackleford on Mar 8, 2017 6:59:31 GMT -8
Good info here. I've been toying with the idea of switching from a canister to an alcohol stove. The caldera cone looks nice. I've been reading a lot of people reporting that the alcohol stoves can be finicky. Is that true of the engineered units like caldera or are these just people that have made their own, and not done a good job? Since the windshield goes on after lighting, how easy is it to light one in windy conditions?
Thanks!
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zeke
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Post by zeke on Mar 8, 2017 7:31:14 GMT -8
I have never had the WB be finicky at all. Pour in fuel, light. I can light it with my windscreen attached, as it is not a full circle screen. It does sit rather tightly around my tea pot, but the inch or so opening allows for plenty of air. It is loose enough that I can light the stove, wait for it to bloom, then place the pot on top of the stove. I'll try to hunt up a pic of it in use.
Ok, so the stove and pot are in this pic, but not in use. you can see the wind screen attached. (lower right corner) it is getting fairly old and rusty. I may need to make a new one in a year or so.
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zeke
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Post by zeke on Mar 8, 2017 7:58:35 GMT -8
I made one from flashing once. No idea where it is now. I probably have some flashing laying around in the garage. Thanks. The depicted windscreen was made from a #10 can.
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markskor
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Post by markskor on Mar 8, 2017 8:20:14 GMT -8
Not mentioned yet is the stove's heat output...RE: cooking fish. For me, usually found high and deep Sierra, yes, alcohol stoves will efficiently heat water to boil at altitude - (great if that's all you're doing), but come up short in their ability to sufficiently cook up trout in a timely manner. For this chore, above the no-fires allowed line, still prefer a remote canister...one with a wide flame pattern like the MSR Windpro. (6.7 oz...similar in weight to your reported Giga Stove set up.)
As for weight comparison... at around 10 days out, past discussions here indicate the weight of the gas canister and stove seems to be about equal to the WB style stove and alcohol needed for the same length of time. The carry out of the spent canister...yes, a pain, but usually compensated by the weight having been lost by now-dwindling food stores.
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