davesenesac
Trail Wise!
Our precious life is short within eternity, don't waste it!
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Post by davesenesac on Aug 26, 2016 12:20:49 GMT -8
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Post by autumnmist on Aug 26, 2016 16:32:06 GMT -8
I found the article quite disturbing. I don't disagree with exterminating the ants, but cows, sheep and especially bees? Extinction seems a more appropriate term. What also surprised and troubled me was the role of the Nature Conservancy. Next time they solicit me I'm going to return their propaganda literature with a link to the article.
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Post by High Sierra Fan on Aug 26, 2016 16:49:48 GMT -8
"The Nature Conservancy’s island eradication programs have always focused on benefiting an ecosystem as a whole, but it is particularly concerned with invasives that tip the ecological balance in such a way that it threatens native wildlife with outright extinction.
I support correction of human caused problems that threaten the native wildlife with extinction. Most especially in ancient islands where many if those species are unique, lose foxes from Central Park and there's plenty more elsewhere. Lose a unique subspecies from the islands and they're gone forever.
Otoh that commercial ranchers would have taken their property (the cattle) with them when they left the island doesn't seem at all remarkable.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2016 9:23:03 GMT -8
I found the article quite disturbing. I don't disagree with exterminating the ants, but cows, sheep and especially bees? Extinction seems a more appropriate term. What also surprised and troubled me was the role of the Nature Conservancy. Next time they solicit me I'm going to return their propaganda literature with a link to the article. Sorry to say this, but I really think your view is unfair. Ranchers raise livestock for the purpose of slaughtering a substantial portion of that livestock. Natural selection relies upon over-production of wildlife. From the minority which survive, the species is propagated. In the process where humans introduced — purposely or inadvertently — non-native species to other ecosystems, those humans caused the deaths of innumerable native species, which were forced to compete for sustenance. Animals, foremost among them our own species, are in a constant battle for survival. In that process, we inevitably cause the deaths of countless other animals. We do that with weapons, starvation, forcing them into inhospitable climates, even by altering the ecosystems from which they must sustain themselves. We will be killing animals. Whether we turn our back to the animal we kill and pretend it was not our fault, or whether we face the animals we kill, the result is the same. We live by killing other animals. So the real question is not whether we are killing them. We are. The real question is whether we do so in a way that preserves and restores ecosystems and threatened species. Cattle and sheep are nowhere close to being a rare species, and due to human intervention, those cattle and sheep have done their parts to deprive other animals of life. Something so apparently docile as domesticated sheep have caused the death of countless wild sheep. Against those facts, are we to blame organizations like Nature Conservancy for helping to tip the balance back in favor of native species — against which we humans have been waging centuries-long warfare?
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Post by autumnmist on Aug 27, 2016 14:18:03 GMT -8
Thanks to each of you for sharing your views and commenting on mine. You've given me something to think about; there are definitely more aspects from which to view this situation than the one I've taken.
I wouldn't normally disagree with the eradication of invasive species, although I tend to think of them as the "Frankenfish", the capybara, Burmese python and others, as well as the many invasive plant species. And perhaps that's because they aren't desirable animals to have around in the first place. I plan to reread the article with your individual and collective thoughts in mind. Although I'm ancient, I'm hopefully never too old to learn, especially if I'm missing someone's logical points.
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balzaccom
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Waiting for spring...
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Post by balzaccom on Aug 27, 2016 17:15:13 GMT -8
What Travis said. And please remember that the tumbleweed, that symbol of the West, was brought here by cattle from Europe. We have massively changed the ecosystem in places. It's nice to see a few places where we have a chance of making it right again.
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swmtnbackpacker
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Back but probably posting soon under my real name ... Rico Sauve
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Post by swmtnbackpacker on Aug 29, 2016 9:20:54 GMT -8
I found the article quite disturbing. I don't disagree with exterminating the ants, but cows, sheep and especially bees? Not saying you are wrong, but just airing my opinion... We humans (and esp. the 'experts' among us) like to 'play god'. Having said that, the island is a very small one; and in that context, I can see the desire to return it to its "pre-human" state as much as possible -- as it seems quite do-able. The island did not have an indigenous bee population (according to the experts anyway). ... Islands are more susceptible to invasive species, so it makes sense to eradicate unwanted ones as it's easier than say tumbleweeds or salt cedar ( Tamarisk tamarisk) on a grand scale in the continental US.
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Post by Lamebeaver on Aug 29, 2016 11:04:13 GMT -8
While I applaud the effort at getting rid of the ants, and other non indigenous species as well, I'm wondering how long this will last. The Argentine ants are close enough I'm afraid it's only a matter of time until they're back. All it takes is a rotten piece of driftwood washed up on the shore...
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Post by ecocentric on Aug 29, 2016 12:26:18 GMT -8
I know some botanists that work for TNC. I trust their judgement on this for the same reason that I would trust a CPA to do my taxes, BECAUSE of their expertise. The Conservancy also does a stellar job with the donations that they receive, consistently maintaining low administrative costs. Extinction rates are much higher on islands for a number of reasons. Anyone that would like to learn a great deal more on the subject would do well to read David Quammen's book The Song Of The Dodo. The dodo is extinct because Dutch sailers ate them and released pigs on islands that they frequented so that they would have a food supply of feral pigs. We know a lot about dodos, but nobody ever described it's song.
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FamilySherpa
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Tangled up in Rhododendron
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Post by FamilySherpa on Aug 29, 2016 12:26:19 GMT -8
Formal permission request to use this thread to rant about kudzu.
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gabby
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Post by gabby on Aug 29, 2016 12:50:09 GMT -8
Globalization is, I suspect, a major contributor to the accelerated movement of animals, plants and diseases. This, along with the rapid pollution of our seas, is yet another cost of having most of the things we consume made halfway around the world.
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reuben
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Gonna need more Camels at the next refugio...
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Post by reuben on Aug 29, 2016 13:05:27 GMT -8
Formal permission request to use this thread to rant about kudzu. Granted. Don't forget salvinia.
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speacock
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I'm here for the food...
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Post by speacock on Aug 29, 2016 14:28:10 GMT -8
ulightbandit
All the gov'mnt needs to do it make kudzu a controlled substance and ban it. It would be smoked up, shot up, snuffed up in no time. Alternately a glitzy high end restaurant would feature it in some dish - like what happened to blackened redfish.
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Post by ecocentric on Aug 29, 2016 16:51:38 GMT -8
I've been involved in conservation botany in varying degrees for decades. I walk almost daily through the fields and forests of Indiana, and have experienced ground truth in a number of other biomes, especially the northern Rockies. Almost none of our country east of the Rockies even vaguely resembles the pre-Columbian ecosystems. Hundreds, possibly thousands of species of specialists have been replaced by species that are generalists. We can only guess at what we have lost. I'm all for some extraordinary efforts to preserve some places that haven't been overrun by exotics. Remember the lessons of "island biogeography," nature preserves are islands that are surrounded by disrupted ecosystems that have been stripped of biodiversity.
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Post by tallgrass on Aug 31, 2016 4:33:00 GMT -8
I know some botanists that work for TNC. I trust their judgement on this for the same reason that I would trust a CPA to do my taxes, BECAUSE of their expertise. The Conservancy also does a stellar job with the donations that they receive, consistently maintaining low administrative costs. Extinction rates are much higher on islands for a number of reasons. Anyone that would like to learn a great deal more on the subject would do well to read David Quammen's book The Song Of The Dodo. The dodo is extinct because Dutch sailers ate them and released pigs on islands that they frequented so that they would have a food supply of feral pigs. We know a lot about dodos, but nobody ever described it's song. Should just read everything written by David Quammen. He's an excellent author. I get giddy whenever I see he's written something for National Geographic.
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