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Post by liv4mtns on Mar 6, 2021 17:44:06 GMT -8
The SOS pad is way too little R value. 1.2. Should be at least 2+ higher for the temps you quoted. The Klymit likely isn't any better. Add at least a 1/2" closed cell underneath or get pads rated at least R-3 higher. The bottom of the bags compress and do not keep you warm, that is why you can use a quilt just as readily as a bag in most instances. You suffered through a night of conductive cooling. It was a Newtonian battle over you heating the ground vs. the ground cooling you. The ground won. Granted my Sea to Summit pad is 1.2, but it has never let me down using my MB bag with it this winter so far and that was what had me scratching my head. But, I get your point. The Klymit pad is rated at an R value of 4.4. At dinner tonight my wife and I were talking about this experience trying to make heads or tails out of it. I think you hit it on the head. Even though the ground wasn't frozen solid, ( tent stakes went in easily and pulled out easily too ) the cold that was trapped in the ground still had the effect like it was frozen. Neither the ground sheet, which is Tyvek, or the bottom of the tent floor were wet, but the coldness still permeated through to the pads. That's the only thing to me that makes sense. This was the first time this winter that we have been backpacking where the ground was this cold. All the other trips were with these same pads but with our MB bags and warmer ground temps.
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Post by bobcat on Mar 6, 2021 18:11:51 GMT -8
You might find that a $12 blue foam pad from your local big box store, used under the air pads you have, will help a lot.
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gabby
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Post by gabby on Mar 6, 2021 18:31:45 GMT -8
Most of the comments here are spot-on - but there's also the "physical condition" considerations.
Last Thursday, after the "deep freeze" here in Austin, I took advantage of a night of forecasted 40°-something and slept outside in my Zolo 1, under my JRB Sierra Sniveler quilt (rated 20°, but 3 or 4 years old, and that's still "optimistic" even if it was new), with my ancient NeoAir All Season (R 4.9 rated) mattress, which I always use over a GG Thinlight 1/8" pad (for puncture protection). I was dressed (rather sloppily) in a long sleeve cotton tee and fleece pants, with heavy wool socks over thin toe socks.
There are a number of observations I could make about my night: I was mostly quite warm (as most here would expect), but I woke a few times with "cold spots" because:
1) I'm not in my 60s anymore 2) I haven't run consistently for almost a decade (I walk 3 or 4 miles, but not consistently lately), so metabolism is lower than it used to be 3) I wasn't as careful about checking the quilt for air leaks (the foot is a "gathered" thing, which, if it's not tightened, can leak air, and the middle has a velcroed "headhole" that should be checked most times to make sure it's completely closed) 4) The decision to sleep out that night was ad hoc at best, and I usually prepare my insulation a little better than "throw the damned thing in the tent and crawl in". Need to give the down a shake (I think) and let it "inflate" while you do other stuff.
I've come to believe that a lot of stuff determines the performance of our sleep systems. There have been times when I could swear that just being a little down, or overtired, will change your experience. Mind, I've slept with this very same setup, though with much more well-thought-out warm clothing, down to the mid 30s. But I'm not the little fuzzy-cheeked guy I once was only 10 years ago. Back in the 90s, I actually slept in my old Marmot Hydrogen (rated 30°) in 19° one night in my very airy Tarptent Squall. The wind blew, I had a vapor barrier inside, but I kept putting on more and more layers, mostly to no avail. I slept, but not very well.
Moral: "The little stuff matters." There's a reason why some recommend eating a candy bar and doing some light calisthenics just before retiring. But, as usual, YMMV.
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trinity
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Post by trinity on Mar 6, 2021 18:54:28 GMT -8
There have been times when I could swear that just being a little down, or overtired, will change your experience. I think this is a great point. That winter storm you alluded to, coming after a year of pandemic, resulted in the highest levels of stress and exhaustion that I have experienced in a very long time. Among other things, I noticed that it really threw off my ability to regulate my own temperature, long after the cold finally broke. Stress can really mess a person up.
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gabby
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Post by gabby on Mar 6, 2021 19:01:44 GMT -8
Stress can really mess a person up. But "love" can warm the cockles of your heart, and raise your metabolism (when done right). Never argue with the wife before retiring, but keep the tone "loving". Physical exertion before sleep is good.** ** Now, if only I could consistently convince the wife that it's not about anything other than "making the gear work effectively".
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Post by bradmacmt on Mar 7, 2021 7:27:52 GMT -8
You might find that a $12 blue foam pad from your local big box store, used under the air pads you have, will help a lot. I'd get a 1/4" Evazote foam pad. Put it on TOP of the air pad. Or just get a higher R value inflatable pad.
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gabby
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Post by gabby on Mar 7, 2021 8:52:57 GMT -8
I'd get a 1/4" Evazote foam pad. Put it on TOP of the air pad. Good call. I almost always use a really thin pad under my Neoair for protection, but I forget the wisdom of the "pad on top", though I've used it successfully. It helps, BTW, to have some way to tie all of it together, or you'll get "all night slippage". TBH, I've some very, very close to just gluing one of those Thinlights onto the Neoair - I'm sure it'd come off, though it might rip the Thinlight apart. :^) Nothing ventured ... Once, when I was over at Gossamer Gear in south Austin (they've since moved, and I'm not sure where), I spent some time talking to one of the guys (again, not sure who, but someone from a few years back, but not Glen van Peski - I've met him, but I'd have remembered), and the delay in "jabbering" led to his telling me that they were shifting inventory, and were getting rid of some pads, so I bought a (for me) huge variety of the Thinlight pads that they still sell. So, at the back of my closet, there are a bunch of these, and I vary the setup a bit depending on weather.
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rangewalker
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Post by rangewalker on Mar 7, 2021 9:46:13 GMT -8
At dinner tonight my wife and I were talking about this experience trying to make heads or tails out of it. I think you hit it on the head. Even though the ground wasn't frozen solid, ( tent stakes went in easily and pulled out easily too ) the cold that was trapped in the ground still had the effect like it was frozen. It is amazing if you ever get to see the frost coming out of the soil in spring. I worked in O&G, pipelines/terminals, and it always made things interesting when you thought nature had given you the all-clear, and you are having to jackhammer the frozen soil just under the surface out while in your t-shirt.
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BigLoad
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Post by BigLoad on Mar 7, 2021 19:12:51 GMT -8
As gabby noted, many factors can contribute to being cold besides the bag and the pad. For me, the big ones I can control are calories, hydration, and clothes. Insufficient food and water can leave me cold at almost any temperature. I also have to wear warm socks in any season and usually a balaclava and gloves. Fatigue is a contributor, too, but it's hard to back off on my goals just to reduce fatigue.
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Post by High Sierra Fan on Mar 8, 2021 12:37:51 GMT -8
^this^ Plus variables specific to a specific site location. A low lying area that will get nighttime downstream cold air density flows, an area that's got high humidity from water where the air will then have much higher heat capacity and thus pull much more heat energy from a person per degree of temperature are two I look out for. On the insulating (in)ability of a couple of layers of nylon plus some crushed down fluffs? I got an early lesson in that on an early days cross country road trip. I was just above Denver when night hit and I pulled over on a wide pullout and threw my 11" loft Trailwise Chevron on the asphalt in front of my car on top of a nylon tarp... no pad. After a few miserable hours of being too shivering to even sleep I got up and got back in my car and drove on: coldest night I ever spent in that wonderful bag. IIRC air temps were reported to be just about 20. But I later realized I'd been trying to warm up the entire Rocky Mountains with my body heat and that's a very losing proposition. An Ensolite pad solved that quite nicely, blizzards in the Sierra and me cowboy camping hardly pushed me to zip up... mostly just roll away from facing into the wind and letting the ground tarp take the snow. It's STILL got loft.
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gabby
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Post by gabby on Mar 8, 2021 12:56:07 GMT -8
ut I later realized I'd been trying to warm up the entire Rocky Mountains with my body heat and that's a very losing proposition. >8^D
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Post by turley on Mar 11, 2021 17:20:50 GMT -8
I couldn't agree more with having a good r-value insulated pad in cooler to cold weather. Probably 15+ years ago when I was younger with less experience I used a Mountain Hardwear 800FP 32F Phantom Sleeping Bag paired with a Thermarest Z-Lite pad for 3 season use in the Olympic National Park and Forest (my stomping ground during that period of my life). The ground was predominately soft even in late fall and early spring and this combo seemed to work. I upgraded to a 5'6" Western Mountaineering 20F Ultralite w/ overfill and proceeded using the same pad. On my first trip along the Elwha River in early March it was colder than normal and the ground frozen....I quickly realized that night that though the Ultralite had incredible loft my backside was cold. From that point on I've been using an insulated pad and currently use a no longer made 66" Women's Neoair X-Therm year round.
I've used many high end bags and Western Mountaineering has always been very true to their temperature rating.
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