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Post by liv4mtns on Mar 6, 2021 13:55:40 GMT -8
So I know a lot of you on the gear forum own, or have owned a WM sleeping bag. I purchased 2 bags in December for myself and my wife. I got the Apinlite, and she got the Ultralite. Mine is the 6'6" version, hers the 5'6" version. We already own 3 MontBell sleeping bags as well that we absolutely love. They are the Super Stretch model that MB doesn't make anymore. I have wanted to try the WM bags for some time, so I went ahead and took a shot. We finally got to try them out this weekend on a 3 day 2 night trip on the AT in Georgia, and what a huge disappointment it turned out to be. Both bags failed miserably. The night time temps were no lower than 35 degrees both nights. When we woke up Saturday morning it was 40 degrees, and both of us were cold the whole night through. Both of the bags are "rated" to 20 degrees which is why I'm so confused. My MB bags are rated higher than that and we have never been cold once in the many years we've owned them.
With my MB bags, I usually wear a long sleeve base layer and a lightweight pair of long pants this time of year. No socks. Last night I had on the base layer, the pants, plus a RAB micro light down hooded jacket and socks and beanie. The bag was completely zipped up as far as it could go until only part of my face was showing. Cold all night long. My wife had even more pieces of clothing on than I did. Same results. Am I missing something??
I wanted to really love these bags, but at this point I don't see that happening. Thoughts??
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driftwoody
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Post by driftwoody on Mar 6, 2021 14:21:18 GMT -8
I have the Montbell Super Stretch model they don't make anymore (800 fill 32*) and the WM Ultralight 6'-6" 20*, and the WM bag is much warmer. Of course, they're rated 12* apart so it's not apples to apples, but I'm very happy with the WM bag. I've slept in it down to 19* with no complaint, though I was wearing warm clothes inside because I'm a cold sleeper.
I think you'll find others here also think very highly of WM bags, along with Feathered Friends as high quality bags to be recommended.
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Post by liv4mtns on Mar 6, 2021 14:24:37 GMT -8
I think you'll find others here also think very highly of WM bags, along with Feathered Friends as high quality bags to be recommended. Exactly woody. I can't understand why we were so cold based on the popularity of the WM bags.
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Post by trinity on Mar 6, 2021 14:29:21 GMT -8
Interesting, and does not match my own experience with my Versalite, which is rated to 10 degrees, and has kept me comfortable down to about 6. If you compare the Alpinelite to comparable Feathered Friends bags (say, the Swift, which is even roomier than the Alpinlite), The WM has about the same amount of fill, and quite a bit more than the Swallow. Could it be that you were wearing too much clothing, causing you to sweat? That is a mistake I have made many times, and makes it very difficult to warm up. I can't think of anything else to explain getting cold in 40 degree temps in a 20 degree WM bag. I am assuming you had at least moderately insulated pads?
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Post by bobcat on Mar 6, 2021 14:29:49 GMT -8
Let’s eliminate a couple possibilities. What sleeping pads were you using underneath you the night you were so cold? What type of shelter from wind were you using? Did you check the loft of the WM bags at home? Are these bags where you can shake the down to move it around the circumference, and if so, was the down distributed mostly underneath you instead of on top? I have several WM bags and have been very satisfied, and the lifts of my bags seem to be a bit over the listed spec. If the loft doesn’t match the spec, check with WM about a repair or replacement.
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Post by liv4mtns on Mar 6, 2021 14:34:24 GMT -8
Could it be that you were wearing too much clothing, causing you to sweat? That is a mistake I have made many times, and makes it very difficult to warm up. I can't think of anything else to explain getting cold in 40 degree temps in a 20 degree WM bag. I am assuming you had at least moderately insulated pads? Trinity, no sweating at all. I mentioned what I was wearing in my OP. More than I wear in the same kind of temps with my MB bags. Both of our WM bags lofted up very well pre-trip.
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Post by liv4mtns on Mar 6, 2021 14:44:23 GMT -8
Let’s eliminate a couple possibilities. What sleeping pads were you using underneath you the night you were so cold? What type of shelter from wind were you using? Did you check the loft of the WM bags at home? Are these bags where you can shake the down to move it around the circumference, and if so, was the down distributed mostly underneath you instead of on top? I have several WM bags and have been very satisfied, and the lifts of my bags seem to be a bit over the listed spec. If the loft doesn’t match the spec, check with WM about a repair or replacement. bobcat, sleeping pads are, seatosummitusa.com/collections/sleeping-mats/products/ether-light-xt-sleeping-matklymit.com/collections/sleeping-pads/products/insulated-static-v-sleeping-pad?variant=31778110799962We've used both of these pads for almost a year with our MB bags with no cold issues at all. Even colder temps than we encountered this weekend. Pads are fine. Lofting is fine as well. I always check my bags. Our MB bags are going on 15 years of use and no issues with them at all as far as lofting and temp rating. I even called MB last year to ask them if I need to do anything with our bags since they were that age. The tech at MB said as long as they were still holding their temp ratings and loft, he saw no problems.
Tent used was Nemo Losi 3. Been using this tent for many years. Actually this is our second Losi 3. First one gave up the ghost after many good years.
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Post by trinity on Mar 6, 2021 14:58:25 GMT -8
I mentioned what I was wearing in my OP. More than I wear in the same kind of temps with my MB bags. That's why I posed the question. Wearing that much clothing inside a 20 degree bag completely zipped up would turn me into a sweat factory, which then would keep me cold all night, and could cause the bag to lose loft, which would exacerbate things.
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reuben
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Post by reuben on Mar 6, 2021 14:58:51 GMT -8
I have a WM Badger, rated to 15F, and use it with a CCF pad, which generally provides insulation than an inflatable pad. No problem.
Were the bags damp/wet, or the the pad under them? Were you sleeping in a low lying area where moisture/humidity will condense?
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Post by liv4mtns on Mar 6, 2021 15:05:51 GMT -8
That's why I posed the question. Wearing that much clothing inside a 20 degree bag completely zipped up would turn me into a sweat factory, which then would keep me cold all night, and could cause the bag to lose loft, which would exacerbate things. When using my MB bags in the temps we had this trip I wear a long sleeve base layer, and a lightweight pair of long pants. Never been cold. When I went to bed last night, I wore that exact same ensemble. An hour later, I got up and put the socks on, as well as the beanie and hooded down jacket. Was cold the rest of the night even with the added clothes.
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Post by liv4mtns on Mar 6, 2021 15:08:50 GMT -8
Were the bags damp/wet, or the the pad under them? Were you sleeping in a low lying area where moisture/humidity will condense? reuben, nothing was wet or damp. A perfectly dry winter night on the AT. We were camped on top of a small mountain across from Hawk Mountain. High and dry. When we awoke this morning to break camp, the ground sheet was dry as well as the tent floor.
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rangewalker
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Post by rangewalker on Mar 6, 2021 15:47:12 GMT -8
I have used an Apinlite 20 6' for 12 years now. (I am 5'9"). My local outfitter sold it to me as a 15 deg bag but I knew better. In a tent, with a pad of R3 or better, base layer and head cover, I have been comfortable down to 20-25 degs. Mine has been washed once. If I know ahead of time, temps are consistently be in the 20's, I pack a liner a Sea-to Summit Liner. If I am using a ultralight pad, like my Tensor, which barely has a R value of 1, then my comfort temp is 30 F or about 0 C. I wish Western Mountaineering would use the EN or European Union system in their marketing. I am 68 versus the 57 when I bought the bag and shifts in my bodies cold tolerance has declined across my fleet of bags.
My operating area is the Central Rockies basins and ranges. With the Alpenlite three season, though 25 and below any more I take out my 0 deg F Marmot Lithium 6'. i am in the market to replace my summer warm night 50 deg and desert bag, and for bike packing, with a quilt and liner. I have a Go-Lite Polarguard lll that is at end of its days (40-60 F deg). The Golite is super wide and has room for a puffy and extra clothes, making it a bivy champ.
I can push the comfort on my Alpinlite lower in a bivy but twice have been bit with freezing fog or rain and the top shell in my OR bivies have iced over and been wetted out across the down.
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Post by bluefish on Mar 6, 2021 15:59:04 GMT -8
The SOS pad is way too little R value. 1.2. Should be at least 2+ higher for the temps you quoted. The Klymit likely isn't any better. Add at least a 1/2" closed cell underneath or get pads rated at least R-3 higher. The bottom of the bags compress and do not keep you warm, that is why you can use a quilt just as readily as a bag in most instances. You suffered through a night of conductive cooling. It was a Newtonian battle over you heating the ground vs. the ground cooling you. The ground won.
In an emergency you can pile up leaves or pine boughs (emergency only!!!!!!!!) , and your packs and spare clothes to provide some insulation from the ground, tent floors, ground cloths etc... are zero. It's hard to discern that the ground is robbing heat, as it does it in a slow even fashion without direct contact and just because your hip isn't turning into a block of ice doesn't mean you aren't being slowly refrigerated. I started out backpacking with blankets and not a clue what a sleeping pad was. By the time I was in my later teens, I finally got a clue and learned to winter camp without shivering around a fire all night.
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Post by bradmacmt on Mar 6, 2021 16:30:13 GMT -8
Dear me, using inflatable pads with a 1.2 R value and complaining? The bags didn't "fail miserably", you didn't use appropriate pads for the temps. Would also add, we all experience cold differently at different times. Sometimes 10F is warm and 35F is cold...
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gabby
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Post by gabby on Mar 6, 2021 17:42:11 GMT -8
Are these bags where you can shake the down to move it around the circumference, and if so, was the down distributed mostly underneath you instead of on top? They are. I own both. They're ExtremeLite series bags - all but the quilts and the sewn-through bags in that series are continuous baffle.
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