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Post by frjaldomr on Apr 10, 2020 8:09:29 GMT -8
Greetings,
I am using the Primus micron trail stove and I have been using MSR isopro fuel.
The last time I purchased fuel they were out of MSR so I bought Stansport isobutane propane.
I don't like the way the stove is acting with this new fuel and I'm wondering if these fuels are all interchangeable.
The stove sputters and then suddenly the flame intensity increases by quite a bit, then drops back down.
I did a little bit of research and all I found was that some fuels are better for cold weather and some require less pressure to operate.
I just want to make sure I'm not doing something dangerous.
Thanks
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gabby
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Post by gabby on Apr 10, 2020 9:03:21 GMT -8
They're all different formulations. Not all fuel brands are equal. Some of the cheaper brands, like Coleman for instance, are not well formulated (Coleman has a lot more butane content than MSR Isopro, for instance). Somewhere on this very forum, we've talked about this in the last year or so. Okay - found this one. We were talking about fuel performance and I posted this. Recommended for Winter Use:- Olicamp Rocketfuel is the best cold weather blend available in North America – at least based on the label. It has 75% isobutane and 25% propane.
- MSR is a good winter blend, 80% isobutane and 20% propane.
- Snow Peak is 85% isobutane and 15% propane.
Brands of Unknown Quality- Jetboil is supposedly 80% isobutane and 20% propane.
- Brunton is reputedly an 80/20 mix.
- Sterno is an isobutane mix according to the label on their cans. What is the mix? Unknown.
- GSI, likewise, is an isobutane mix according to the label on their cans. What is the mix? Unknown.
Not Recommended:- Coleman regular threaded canisters (not Powermax) are 30% propane and 70% butane.
- Primus is 25 % propane, 25 % isobutane, and 50 % butane per their website.
- Optimus brand is 25% propane, 75% butane
- Glowmaster is 20% propane and 80% butane
Adventures in Stoving: "What's the Best Brand of Gas for Cold Weather?" In general, the higher the percentage of butane in the mix, the less well the fuel will burn in the cold. (See the chart below.) Not all fuels from the cheaper, but more available, brands - like Coleman - are labeled. More: (from backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/25815/ - this website's content may be restricted to members.) I don't think it's necessarily "dangerous" - just different fuels work less well. You will note that MSR IsoPro is listed in the "Recommended for Winter Use" group. I suspect that the Stansport brand falls squarely into the last "Not Recommended" group. I normally use Snowpeak fuel canisters because they are relatively well formulated and they're usually the cheapest product on the shelf at REI (unusual indeed for Snowpeak, since they almost always overvalue their products!).
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Post by frjaldomr on Apr 10, 2020 9:46:49 GMT -8
I'm just perplexed as to why the stove is acting so different with this new fuel.
When I use the MSR it's always a constant burn.
I guess maybe it's just crappy fuel.
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gabby
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Post by gabby on Apr 10, 2020 10:13:03 GMT -8
I'm just perplexed as to why the stove is acting so different with this new fuel. The short answer (I never give short answers) is, yes, it's "crappy fuel". Once upon a time, I got one of those cheap little butane kitchen stoves from a local Chinese grocer, set it aside after playing with it for a few months. Then I got the idea to use the pure butane canisters the Chinese stove uses with one of my small bp stoves, using an adapter that came with a cheap stand I bought from Hong Kong. What I found out is that, though most bp canister stoves will burn pure butane, they don't perform well at all with it. Some of the older stoves I have, like the old Olicamp Scorpion/Hank Roberts/Gerry stoves, work better with butane because of their design. However, most of the newer canister stoves were designed to use isobutane mixture fuels. If you think those "high butane" fuels burn "crappy" in warmer weather, try one of those canisters in truly cold weather. Aside on "stove & fuel design": I once (foolishly some said) tried using denatured alcohol in an MSR fuel bottle with a Primus Ergopump (which has a Lindal valve style connector) and the MSR Windpro stove. What I found out was that the fuel burned very inefficiently in that stove until I closed off most of the airholes on the side of the stove. I used a foil cover into which I poked pretty small holes. With that fix, the denatured alcohol burned quite well, putting out a nice blue flame. Of course - as many commented at the time I described my experiment - what's the point of that? Alcohol already puts out a nice blue flame w/o the stove, the pump, the fuel bottle, etc. More of all the information you ever wanted on canister stoves, but were afraid to ask: zenstoves.net/Canister.htmFor some relevant experiences by a few people with cold weather and canisters, read that entire thread I cited. On page 2 of the thread, there is some discussion of inverting canisters and other persons' experiences with "cheap" canisters. |
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toejam
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Post by toejam on Apr 11, 2020 0:16:50 GMT -8
The stove sputters and then suddenly the flame intensity increases by quite a bit, then drops back down. The quality of anything Stansport is questionable. I haven't ever had that issue and I've used Coleman, Optimus, lately several cans of Kovea. |
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cweston
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Post by cweston on Apr 14, 2020 4:03:19 GMT -8
The short answer (I never give short answers) is, yes, it's "crappy fuel". LOL. It's good to know yourself. (From one sometimes-longwinded poster to another.) |
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cweston
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Post by cweston on Apr 14, 2020 4:06:33 GMT -8
The quality of anything Stansport is questionable. I haven't ever had that issue and I've used Coleman, Optimus, lately several cans of Kovea. I concur that general quality is likely the primary issue. I usually buy MSR, but have also used Jetboil, Brunton, Optimus, and Primus, in summer camps above treeline where it is frequently 30-ish F in the morning, and have had no problems with those brands. |
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Post by Lamebeaver on Apr 14, 2020 7:43:29 GMT -8
I'm just perplexed as to why the stove is acting so different with this new fuel. Because: "There's no fuel like an old fuel"  |
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swiftdream
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Post by swiftdream on Apr 14, 2020 14:26:19 GMT -8
I always shake the canister before hooking up and using. In my experience this makes it run better throughout the life of the canister in cold weather for all brands I have used. The two fuels can separate and one burns off faster if not shaken is my guess. Don’t know the reason for sure but it works.
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swiftdream
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Post by swiftdream on Apr 14, 2020 15:32:50 GMT -8
Shaking the iso-butane canister causes the butane to heat up, expanding, increasing the internal pressure. A keeping the canister warm thing. I’m not disputing this premise but not sure it’s the whole story. Isobutane has a boiling point of about 11 ° F. propane has a boiling point of -43°. That is why the blend does well in cold weather. When totally blended they work smoothly together. One seems to be heavier than the other at the same temp and pressure so it is possible one may float and burn off quicker? Shaking works is the simple answer. |
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toejam
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Post by toejam on Apr 16, 2020 9:53:52 GMT -8
In cold weather I set the canister in a little water when the stove is lit. Keeps the canister from freezing during use. Easy to do with a Jetboil using the plastic cup. I think it makes a big difference. Worked on the summit of Rainier.
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Post by bradmacmt on Apr 23, 2020 5:42:00 GMT -8
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ErnieW
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Post by ErnieW on Apr 30, 2020 18:02:42 GMT -8
When I read that the boiling point of isobutane was 11F it sounded wrong. My canister stoves have always had issue way before that. But the chart I found below sheds some light on this. Isobutane will boil at one atmosphere at 11F. But at one atmosphere in the can there is no gradient to go to the one atmosphere outside. The pressure has to be higher to get through the valve and orifice at a high enough flow rate to make the stove work. Throw in the chilling of the can by the Joule-Thomson effect and the working temp is much higher.
P.S. The sputtering could be due to heavier hydrocarbons in that fuel. I would be concerned about it fouling the stove. Not dangerous that I can think of but your stove may not be as reliable again.
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Post by janniesophia42 on Apr 10, 2022 20:06:14 GMT -8
The main issue with any stove system's weight is fuel. With that in mind, I was going to experiment as follows. A firebox nano and my primary fuel would be biofuel. When biofuel proves problematic I was also going to have my Esbit (Trangia clone) alcohol stove and a few ounces of fuel, 5 or 6 max as a backup. This is basically a 2 person 5-day setup. Along with the issue of lighting, alcohol is less efficient in winter and I tend to burn more fuel. Also, I guess it depends on what winter means to you. what do you say ? |
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swiftdream
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Post by swiftdream on Apr 11, 2022 10:15:38 GMT -8
The main issue with any stove system's weight is fuel. With that in mind, I was going to experiment as follows. A firebox nano and my primary fuel would be biofuel. When biofuel proves problematic I was also going to have my Esbit (Trangia clone) alcohol stove and a few ounces of fuel, 5 or 6 max as a backup. This is basically a 2 person 5-day setup. Along with the issue of lighting, alcohol is less efficient in winter and I tend to burn more fuel. Also, I guess it depends on what winter means to you. what do you say ? We were talking about canisters of isopro but with wood the conditions from drought have made things bone dry out here so even though there are no fire bans I won’t use that for stove fuel at present. As for the Trangia which carries its own fuel supply without leaking after the seam was soldered and with its super fine simmer ring like your Esbit that lets me cook just about anything, mine burns far cleaner if a splash of water is added. Others here can help you with cold seasonal performance of alcohol. We just don’t see that kind of cold so it’s never an issue. At 17°F which is about as cold as we’ll do, lighting and using alcohol has never been a problem. |
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