toejam
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Post by toejam on Feb 1, 2020 7:44:19 GMT -8
Don't know who of you have been following this. There was a tweak in the regulations affecting people hiking the John Muir Trail this year. "Permits for the John Muir Trail (JMT) are issued by the agency where your trip will begin. If your trip is a continuous wilderness trip one permit will be accepted by all the parks and forests along the way... If you have a break in continuous travel a new permit would be required from the agency where the next section of your trip begins." www.fs.usda.gov/main/inyo/passes-permits/recreationIt used to be accepted that you could leave the trail for 24 hours to resupply, but now it's been stated that if you catch the bus from Red's Meadow to Mammoth, spend a night at the Mt. Williamson Hotel, or otherwise hitch a ride for resupply, your permit becomes invalid. This is causing a lot of consternation among the people on Facebook who report having to apply dozens of times for a permit because the system is so poorly designed. I'm not worried about it because I don't see how it can be enforced. Thoughts?
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balzaccom
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Post by balzaccom on Feb 1, 2020 9:48:57 GMT -8
I don't hike much on the JMT because it is so busy. This is an attempt to manage those crowds. I'm all in favor of it. I think hiking through hikes has become something beyond just a chance to explore the wilderness. And as a result, it needs more management.
This is no different from a permit to hike in Yosemite National Park, for example. You can exit the wilderness to cross a road or grab a resupply at the TM store---but if you camp one night outside of the wilderness (which is Yosemite is 4 miles in) then you need to get a new permit to start back in again.
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Post by johntpenca on Feb 1, 2020 12:14:05 GMT -8
I don't read it that way. The site mentions resupply. The itinerary locations include most common resupply trailheads (TM, Reds Meadow/Mammoth, Onion Valley). And how would they know if you left the trail for a short duration? Guess it depends on the definition of "continuous". I didn't see a specific mention that one couldn't leave the trail. Did I miss it?
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Post by High Sierra Fan on Feb 1, 2020 13:11:45 GMT -8
Well, no. “ Solution: Leadership on the Inyo National Forest wants to be responsive to our communities and the experiences that people seek in the Sierra Nevada. We also want to be good partners with our neighboring agencies and help address the collective concern for managing an increasingly popular and busy trail corridor. ”The Inyo will continue to allow exit for resupply for JMT and other local permits with a long-distance hike,” said Tammy Randall-Parker, Forest Supervisor for the Inyo National Forest. “However, we are asking our community, both locally and in the JMT community, to adhere to the spirit of a resupply and to offer constructive solutions that help us manage these wilderness areas.”” /?d=n
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Post by High Sierra Fan on Feb 1, 2020 13:19:21 GMT -8
I fully sympathize. Quadrupling the traffic volume over Kearsarge Pass down to Onion Valley in one year?!!
Inyo is trying to avoid another linear toilet like their Whitney Portal> Trail Crest route has become. And either “the community” helps or they’ll do it themselves. Mandatory campsites with reservations?
And imho anyone having to apply in that simple online system “dozens of times”? is far better off staying safely on their couch. They’d surely totally fail from the vapors if they were doing a SoBo out of Happy Isles and had to deal with that lottery circus. 😄😄😄
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Post by johntpenca on Feb 1, 2020 13:44:26 GMT -8
Inyo is trying to avoid another linear toilet like their Whitney Portal> Trail Crest route has become. And either “the community” helps or they’ll do it themselves. Mandatory campsites with reservations? And imho anyone having to apply in that simple online system “dozens of times”? is far better off staying safely on their couch. They’d surely totally fail from the vapors if they were doing a SoBo out of Happy Isles and had to deal with that lottery circus. Like the National Parks, the sierra in general is being loved to death. More regulation is the obvious end result. There is a similar thread on Mountain Project re: eastside BLM and LADWP land becoming more regulated.
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toejam
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Post by toejam on Feb 1, 2020 14:01:36 GMT -8
”The Inyo will continue to allow exit for resupply for JMT and other local permits with a long-distance hike,” said Tammy Randall-Parker, Forest Supervisor for the Inyo National Forest. I read that this morning, which prompted my post. However, the regs online still read: "Continuous wilderness travel is an unbroken path on system trails or within wilderness. If you have a break in continuous travel a new permit would be required from the agency where the next section of your trip begins." There never have been rangers at trailheads invalidating permits because people went to town. I don't see that ever happening. Every PCT hiker makes a town stop or two on that stretch. This curmudgeonny unenforceable continuous travel language seems intended to scare people, does little to actually fix a problem, and brought a lot of pressure from those affected, especially businesses like Mt. Williamson Hotel.
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Post by High Sierra Fan on Feb 1, 2020 15:40:48 GMT -8
Well as Randall-Parker is the boss of those rangers I’ll take that statement as directive for this season at any rate. In future seasons that may change in some fashion were conditions below Kearsarge to deteriorate. Too many toilet paper blooms and human fecal matter contaminated water and they’ll probably act. Since they’re reviewing the issue. “ The Inyo National Forest will be reaching out to our partners, stakeholders, and interested publics over the upcoming year to define what resupply looks like in the Sierra Nevada region.” As with the park service I’d expect a comment period were changes to be proposed. Though I’m not sure what procedures the Forest Service uses or is required to implement for public input. Yes I read Mt. Williamson Motel & Basecamp’s FB remarks. /?d=n
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Hungry Jack
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Post by Hungry Jack on Feb 1, 2020 17:03:31 GMT -8
This is a great opportunity for Amazon to offer a drone-based, trailside resupply service.
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reuben
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Post by reuben on Feb 1, 2020 17:20:29 GMT -8
This is a great opportunity for Amazon to offer a drone-based, trailside resupply service. With wifi.
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Post by High Sierra Fan on Feb 1, 2020 17:32:31 GMT -8
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Post by plaidman on Feb 1, 2020 22:55:28 GMT -8
High Sierra Fan said: "And imho anyone having to apply in that simple online system “dozens of times”? is far better off staying safely on their couch. They’d surely totally fail from the vapors if they were doing a SoBo out of Happy Isles and had to deal with that lottery circus. 😄😄😄"
Guess I'll lay back down on the couch, then. Any system that can be gamed by some geek's script that constantly pings it until they scoop up available permits while the rest of us luddites click away and stare at unresponsive screens isn't fair. Byond that, the system seems to work pretty well for those who have a lot of time and flexibilty. It doesn't work so well for employed taxpayers with limited vacation time. The system isn't perfect. It's a necessary evil. But it's still evil.
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toejam
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Post by toejam on Feb 2, 2020 2:49:00 GMT -8
The Inyo NF reservations are easy enough. Either they are available on line or not. Yosemite has a lottery for the 45 hikers/day going south over Donahue Pass and that's where people have to keep re-applying after multiple denials.
Yosemite's language is stronger than Inyo's:
"Continuous travel is a condition of a wilderness itinerary in which the user travels from a Yosemite National Park entry trailhead to the exit trailhead during the dates specified in the permit. Exiting the wilderness at any time during a wilderness itinerary invalidates the wilderness permit. In order to continue backpacking, you would need a new wilderness permit. There are two exceptions: Crossing a road by means of traditional wilderness travel (by foot or with stock) in continuation of a wilderness itinerary A one-night stop in the Tuolumne Meadows Backpackers Campground as part of an ongoing and continuous long-distance hiking permit. Travel by vehicle or bus at any time during a wilderness itinerary invalidates the wilderness permit. There is no such exception for Yosemite Valley. Any travel through Yosemite Valley invalidates the permit."
This is reasonable if you are spending a week in the park or on the beginning or end of a JMT hike. But it doesn't work for a long distance hike where you have to resupply a few times.
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Post by High Sierra Fan on Feb 2, 2020 12:08:52 GMT -8
“ This is reasonable if you are spending a week in the park or on the beginning or end of a JMT hike. But it doesn't work for a long distance hike where you have to resupply a few times.”
The Yosemite regulations applies solely within Yosemite so I’m hard pressed to see the impact on routes where you have to resupply a few times. Tuolumne Meadows store and post office are close to bring on the trail and for those wanting a break instead of a simple resupply, the Tuolumne Meadows backpacker campground as pointed out is exempted. Next stop Sonora Pass resupply or Mammoth, neither in Yosemite and do neither subject to Yosemite’s regulations.
The original topic being Inyo’s changes my comments were solely about their wilderness permit application process online at recreation dot Gov. Which is as straightforward as a hotel reservation using Orbitz: look at the availability calendar, select an available date and fill out the online webpages: pay the fee. And the end of a few minutes you’ve got a confirmed wilderness permit reservation. And I did throw in my negative view of the Happy Isles start though it’s not related to Inyo’s changes. Heck instead of vying for one of the 35 reservable slots out if the selected trailheads for a Donahue exit its a lot simpler, imho, to just show up at TM midweek and get one of the ten exit slots held back for walk ups with a start at Lyell Canyon. Some days that quota isn’t ever filled per the status board behind the counter.
Will Inyo be adopting Yosemite ‘s approach? Well, not this year.
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ErnieW
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Post by ErnieW on Feb 4, 2020 6:09:48 GMT -8
How would they tell the difference between a zero day or two in the park and leaving the trail for that time?
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