|
Post by cweston on Aug 21, 2019 8:19:49 GMT -8
Right--I use odor-proof bags religiously, partly for the reason you mention, oldbill: so many of my camps are above the trees. In that case, I usually hang my food on top of a boulder. Bears CAN get to it, obviously, but they seem fairly unlikely to do so; especially if they don't smell it in the first place. The wilderness rangers' beef with using Ursacks *without* odor-proof bags and without hanging is that it is still likely to attract the bear into close proximity with human camper, even if they don't successfully get the food.
|
|
|
Post by JRinGeorgia on Aug 21, 2019 18:49:05 GMT -8
There's an easy way to hang without needing the perfect limb. I call it the "reverse PCT" method (because I don't know that it has an actual name). Demonstrated in this video starting around 2:30:
The only way a bear can defeat this is to figure out the value in chewing through the cord.
|
|
|
Post by oldbill on Jan 7, 2020 15:21:41 GMT -8
Thought I'd add this year's experience to the thread. I almost lost my food twice this year in the Winds. Both times using the PCT method.
Once the line got snagged on the branch with the bag nowhere near reach. It was a dead branch about 3" in diameter. I chose that tree/branch as it was the "smoothest"/bark-free around. After trying pulling at different angles, shaking, etc. I had to resort to trying to break it free by lobbing rocks at it from a nearby boulder. Finally broke the branch. Then I had to find a replacement tree limb! Caused me to leave much later to hike to a fishing spot than planned.
The second time the line got tangled with the carabiner and stick. It took over 30 minutes to get it untangled enough to be able to hoist it up to get to the toggle stick. I was relieved (and hungry) at that point. But told myself I really need to rethink staying ultralight vs getting an Ursack.
The problem is the Ursack really doesn't solve the problem. If a bear gets at it, the trip is over anyway as the food is pulverized and covered in slobber. And, it adds another 8-9 oz. PLUS- it should be hung anyway. Yes, one can add even more weight with the aluminum insert to protect the food.
It's great to hear the rangers in the Winds are pro-hanging, including Ursacks. I had read somewhere that they use Ursacks themselves. I assume most come in on horseback so weight isn't an issue. I've also read that they routinely ticket for poor hangs, though that may not include Ursacks? I have to admit to having marginal hangs many times, though using 2 trees helps. I've yet to see a hanging video using pines and spruce in a mountain setting, even if not near treeline.
I have never had a problem with animals and my food using silnylon/Opsack hangs. Certainly interested to hear from the Winds experts about whether it's really worth having an Ursack (Major or Major XL) when most of the camps are at treeline (hike high, sleep low) but the trees are straggly, gnarly pine and spruce. What about the mini-bears?
|
|
|
Post by High Sierra Fan on Jan 7, 2020 17:38:59 GMT -8
Anywhere that’s allowed at popular sites there’s the risk of tree limb damage from the cord “sawing” through the limbs bark.
To counter that I’ve read (I just canister) arborists cord is specifically designed to avoid cutting into tree limbs.
|
|
texasbb
Trail Wise!
Hates chicken
Posts: 1,223
|
Post by texasbb on Jan 7, 2020 19:09:22 GMT -8
I've yet to see a hanging video using pines and spruce in a mountain setting, even if not near treeline. I can't show you a video but I've done it many times. Do a PCT hang on the widest limb you can find, then tug the free end of the rope over to the side and tie it off to another tree. Sorta like this:
|
|
almostthere
Trail Wise!
putting on my hiking shoes....
Posts: 696
|
Post by almostthere on Jan 7, 2020 21:05:15 GMT -8
If I hang food it's for rodents/raccoons, in areas without bears. I have a hank of Zing It and it's worth picking up.
The Sierra Nevada is chock full of paracord dangling high in trees out of reach, and I've seen how it gets there - the rope snags, the person puuuulllllllllllsssssss and instead of the branch the rope breaks. Sproing! Yet another trace left for however long it takes to rot away up there. Forever, it seems, as the places we go repeatedly, it's there year, after year, after year.
|
|
|
Post by oldbill on Jan 8, 2020 4:53:11 GMT -8
Thanks. It's possible using a different line might help with a snag/sawing. The UL Griz has worked in all but a few instances in that regard. Will look again at Zing It and the Lawson product. Certainly less weight than the Ursack+hang system.
That's a great 2 tree hang. Those are much larger trees (lodgepole?) than what's usually near treeline in the Winds and don't have as many low branches (the tree on the far left is what I normally encounter- many downward sloped branches). Otherwise it's like what I had set up when the line got tangled with the carabiner and stick. It was also on a significant slope which made it even more challenging.
|
|
texasbb
Trail Wise!
Hates chicken
Posts: 1,223
|
Post by texasbb on Jan 8, 2020 13:42:04 GMT -8
That's a great 2 tree hang. Those are much larger trees (lodgepole?) than what's usually near treeline in the Winds and don't have as many low branches (the tree on the far left is what I normally encounter- many downward sloped branches). Yeah, those are pretty big trees (the main hang is in a larch, aka tamarack here in eastern WA), but the idea is the same--do a PCT hang on whatever close limb you can get to that's high enough and pull the food out into the air. Where all you've got is little subalpine firs and such, that's Ursack territory IMO.
|
|
markskor
Trail Wise!
Mammoth Lakes & Tuolumne Meadows...living the dream
Posts: 651
|
Post by markskor on Jan 8, 2020 17:01:02 GMT -8
I use odor-proof bags religiously, IMHO, no such thing as an odor proof bag...you touch it, it has an odor.
|
|
|
Post by High Sierra Fan on Jan 8, 2020 19:34:16 GMT -8
I use odor-proof bags religiously, IMHO, no such thing as an odor proof bag...you touch it, it has an odor. Plus bears clearly use their eyes for seeking food and to them human+bag = possible food. I had a water bag hanging near my head bitten into overnight where a bear clearly decided the blue nylon sack was worth testing. I woke up to find it empty and was quite puzzled until I found the teeth holes. Near Rancheria Falls Yosemite some years back.
|
|
almostthere
Trail Wise!
putting on my hiking shoes....
Posts: 696
|
Post by almostthere on Jan 8, 2020 21:41:42 GMT -8
I use odor-proof bags religiously, IMHO, no such thing as an odor proof bag...you touch it, it has an odor. Anyone who thinks OPsacks are actually odor proof needs to go to Backpacking Light's archives and pop a couple bucks to read the experiment they did with drug sniffing dogs and OPsacks.
I'll keep using my usual melange of ziplocks and reusable bags, and forego the expense of the OPsack. Bears have better noses than dogs do. The dogs found it no problem to find the stuff in OPsacks with great accuracy. And, the people running the experiment were careful not to contaminate the outsides of the bags.
|
|
walkswithblackflies
Trail Wise!
Resident terrorist-supporting eco-freak bootlicker
Posts: 6,931
|
Post by walkswithblackflies on Jan 9, 2020 5:43:59 GMT -8
I miss hanging bear bags. It appealed to the engineer in me. But I've forsaken them not because of the bears, but because squirrels (and flying squirrels) were chewing through them.
|
|
|
Post by oldbill on Jan 10, 2020 7:14:03 GMT -8
Yes, that was a concerning test, using drug sniffing dogs if I recall right. Other controlled tests have had more positive results. Uncontrolled tests (trail experience) is a mixed bag but, by definition, are anecdotal. Still, the experiences of backpackers in the same terrain are very useful. Ursack requires the Opsak as a critical part of their system. I view the Opsak (and all other food related measures) as attempts to *reduce* the attractiveness of my food and gear to animals. "odor proof"? Probably not, with normal use. I wipe the outside of mine down in the field as an added measure but know it's no guarantee. I'm counting on the nearest bear being attracted to stronger food smells, but most places I camp the bear density is low. I know I am not going to carry a bear canister unless required. I will not sleep with my food in the Winds (or anywhere there are bears, even black bears, for that matter). Whether the Ursack + hang (different than the instructions to tie it to an immovable object) is any better than just hanging is still something I'm debating. Pros: 1. Easier to deploy 2. Rangers won't ticket as often as a bad silnylon hang, even if not hung (as they recommend, at least in the Winds) 3. If the bear gets to it, it isn't rewarded Cons: 1. Additional 8-9 oz (I'm counting the rope to hang as equal. A 10-15L silnylon sack is maybe an oz?) 2. If hung, there may be similar issues as a standard hang (snags, getting the throw rope through dense lower limbs,...) 3. If the bear gets to it the trip is over (especially if solo) because the food is inedible. Both you and the bear lose. 4. Cost: $90 for Ursack major $100 for Ursack XL 5. Even more money and weight if you want rodent protection too, which is the higher risk anyway. The alternative: continue to hang. The images and frustration of my food stuck on some limb are still there. As well as stuck rock sacks when attempting to get through dense or dead branches. Maybe a different throw line and/or technique will help. Typical tree situation (lots of spruce and/or dead lower limbs on pines) near treeline:
|
|
reuben
Trail Wise!
Gonna need more Camels at the next refugio...
Posts: 11,147
|
Post by reuben on Jan 10, 2020 7:17:27 GMT -8
I miss hanging bear bags. It appealed to the engineer in me. But I've forsaken them not because of the bears, but because squirrels (and flying squirrels) were chewing through them. Ursack makes 3 bags. One is bearproof (crushing teeth, e.g. bears), one is critter proof (gnawing teeth, e.g. squirrels), and the third is a combo of the first two.
|
|
|
Post by johntpenca on Jan 10, 2020 19:41:04 GMT -8
I find when I bag a bear an old climbing rope works pretty well. Those suckers are heavy when you hang them.
edit: not PETA approved.
|
|