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Post by Magnus B. on Jan 10, 2019 10:13:54 GMT -8
So, I started a thread where I was looking at a cheap puffy jacket from Big 5 sporting goods. I was convinced it was not the right unit. I am taking a trip to Europe for 3 weeks in March. I will be visiting Amsterdam, Berlin, Krakow, and Prague. I will be living out of a backpack. I am using this trip as an excuse to acquire a good compressible puffer jacket. I live on the west side WA state where it rains all winter. I would also like this jacket for outdoor use here. On my trip, I am preparing for temperatures of 20ºf-55ºf. I have been taking walks at night with my pack on to get my legs ready, and to figure out my clothing situation. I have a USGI fleece jacket, that works great at 50ºf with a long sleeve shirt underneath. The other night it was 34º out when I went on my walk. I wore my wool Filson vest over my long sleeve shirt, and then my fleece over that. Had I not been waking with a pack on my back, I would have been freezing my balls off. I am the kind of person that handles hot weather like a champ, but I get cold easy. I get chilled to the bone, and am miserable. I hate to be cold. I notice most of these type of jackets have a number rating. Typically 650-850. (What do these numbers mean?) I am looking at 850s. Because it is so wet here. I am looking at synthetic, or treated down. I want at least one chest pocket, and I would like inside pockets. I want a hood. I like browns, black, greens, and greys. I don't like bright colors, or blue. I am planning to wear the jacket as a coat, or to layer it as needed with my wool vest, fleece, and a Goretex shell. I am looking at this: www.rei.com/product/137433/rei-co-op-magma-850-down-hoodie-mensand this: www.columbia.com/mens-snow-country-hooded-jacket-1823141.html (no chest pockets,WTF!?) Maybe this: www.outdoorresearch.com/us/en/mens/mens-jackets-vests/mens-synthetic-insulation/mens-perch-belay-parka/p/2448080001008What else should I be looking at? Do you have any other information, or advice I should be considering? |
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jazzmom
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Post by jazzmom on Jan 10, 2019 11:24:37 GMT -8
The first question I would have is whether weight if important. The OR jacket you have linked weighs over 30oz, while the REI jacket is under 14oz. Big difference due to the type of insulation.
I personally think "synthetic down" is simply a misleading BS term. "Down", by definition, means bird down/feathers; if it's synthetic, it's not down. The numbers like 650, 850, is the down "fill count" which is basically the quality of the down used. The number represents the volume, in cubic inches, of one ounce of the down. The higher, the better, since the volume or "loft" represents its insulating potential. Down will provide the most warmth per weight -- which is why I asked whether the weight of the jacket matters. Down will also be better at temperature regulation, so that you're more comfortable over a wider range of temperatures.
Of the three, I would choose the REI down jacket, assuming you want something that's lightweight for backpacking purposes. For other options, check Eddie Bauer. They've been having a great sale and I think their First Ascent line is excellent for what you pay.
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markskor
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Mammoth Lakes & Tuolumne Meadows...living the dream
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Post by markskor on Jan 10, 2019 11:37:55 GMT -8
Well-made, Light, Cheap... pick two. The fill power rating (FPR) can range from 300 to 900 and above. The most common down products have a rating of 400 to 500. These are considered to be low quality, however, as they come from immature geese and ducks and therefore are made from smaller down clusters. When purchasing a high quality down fill jacket, you should look for a fill power rating of at least 550. A jacket of this caliber will be both warmer and more comfortable. A down fill rating of 600, for example, means that one ounce of down can cover 600 cubic inches. Additionally, goose down much preferred over duck. From my experience, duck down when wet has a funky smell - but maybe that's just me. All reputable manufacturers always state their FPR, but if they do not state it is goose specifically, it is most probably duck. As for "treated down"...not sold on this yet either. It is hard to get down wet...unless really raining. I use a 3-part layering system for my cold-weather gear. Under - a fleece layer... Then a 850 goose down layer... Over the top a light-weight waterproof shell, (usually shell not worn but stashed - close at hand... stored in my pack.) BTW, I intentionally buy my shell one size larger...as worn over the puffy. If hiking, I usually eschew the down puffy in favor of my 850 WM Flite vest. Lots of sales going on now...do your homework. I carry either - (both are 850 goose.) mytrailco.com/collections/mens-apparel or www.google.com/search?q=mountain+hardwear+jackets&rlz=1C1SQJL_enUS781US781&oq=mountain+hardware+jackets&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l5.15670j1j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 |
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Post by Magnus B. on Jan 10, 2019 12:39:16 GMT -8
Well-made, Light, Cheap... pick two. The fill power rating (FPR) can range from 300 to 900 and above. The most common down products have a rating of 400 to 500. These are considered to be low quality, however, as they come from immature geese and ducks and therefore are made from smaller down clusters. When purchasing a high quality down fill jacket, you should look for a fill power rating of at least 550. A jacket of this caliber will be both warmer and more comfortable. A down fill rating of 600, for example, means that one ounce of down can cover 600 cubic inches. Additionally, goose down much preferred over duck. From my experience, duck down when wet has a funky smell - but maybe that's just me. All reputable manufacturers always state their FPR, but if they do not state goose specifically, it is probably duck. As for "treated down"...not sold on this yet either. It is hard to get down wet...unless really raining. I use a 3-part layering system for my cold-weather gear. Under - a fleece layer... Then a 850 goose down layer... Over the top a light waterproof shell, (usually shell not worn but stashed - close at hand... stored in my pack.) BTW, I intentionally bought my shell one size larger...as worn over the puffy. If hiking, I usually eschew the down puffy in favor of my 850 WM Flite vest. Lots of sales going on now...do your homework. I carry either - (both 850 goose.) mytrailco.com/collections/mens-apparel or www.google.com/search?q=mountain+hardwear+jackets&rlz=1C1SQJL_enUS781US781&oq=mountain+hardware+jackets&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l5.15670j1j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8I really appreciate all the information. Your link to the mountain hardware jacket is not working. |
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Post by Magnus B. on Jan 10, 2019 12:41:12 GMT -8
The first question I would have is whether weight if important. The OR jacket you have linked weighs over 30oz, while the REI jacket is under 14oz. Big difference due to the type of insulation. I personally think "synthetic down" is simply a misleading BS term. "Down", by definition, means bird down/feathers; if it's synthetic, it's not down. The numbers like 650, 850, is the down "fill count" which is basically the quality of the down used. The number represents the volume, in cubic inches, of one ounce of the down. The higher, the better, since the volume or "loft" represents its insulating potential. Down will provide the most warmth per weight -- which is why I asked whether the weight of the jacket matters. Down will also be better at temperature regulation, so that you're more comfortable over a wider range of temperatures. Of the three, I would choose the REI down jacket, assuming you want something that's lightweight for backpacking purposes. For other options, check Eddie Bauer. They've been having a great sale and I think their First Ascent line is excellent for what you pay. I really appreciate your eye to detail, and all the information. Yes! Weight is definitely a consideration. |
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Post by johntpenca on Jan 10, 2019 13:47:04 GMT -8
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Post by johntpenca on Jan 10, 2019 14:43:53 GMT -8
Got a question: you posted a link to the OR parka at $325. Are you willing to go that high price-wise? That opens things up. You initially posted a $50 coat. Just how much are you willing to spend? Are you looking for a jacket that will last one trip or 10-20 years?
I'd avoid synthetic fill; heavier, bulkier, shorter life. If you are going to lay out $325, there are much better options. OR makes great gear; have several pieces of their gear.
If you are doing European style backpacking, to me that means staying in inns, which will give you time to dry out down. With a good shell, down will not get wet.
Think of it as a system. Layering is the key.
Eddie Buaer has stepped up their game and worth looking at.
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daveg
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Michigan
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Post by daveg on Jan 10, 2019 20:25:07 GMT -8
Here is a review I found of down jackets for 2019 -- link. That website also has a page about estimated temperature range for various fill weights -- link. Like you, I get cold easily. The fill weight (the weight of the down in the jacket) of ultralight high fill power down jackets is typically in the 3 oz range. By itself, that is not enough to keep me warm in 20*F temperatures when I am not very active. If the jacket is large enough to wear additional insulation layers underneath, it can work. A lot of manufacturers specify the fill weight, but some don't. I couldn't find a fill weight for the REI Magma 850. But given its appearance and total weight, I suspect the fill weight is in the 3 oz range. If I wanted a jacket that, by itself would keep me warm while inactive in below freezing temperatures, I'd be looking for a mid-weight jacket with 5 or 6 ounces of 800+ fill. The "thickness" of the shell fabric may also be a consideration. The shell fabric of ultralight jackets is typically 20d or less. (Smaller number is thinner.) That decreases total weight but is also makes the shell more susceptible to damage. The more a jacket may be subject to abuse, the thicker shell fabric I prefer. |
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Post by hikerjer on Jan 10, 2019 21:41:48 GMT -8
I think I'll take a different slant on this. Based on your original post where wet weather seems to be a decided factor, I think I'd go with a synthetic fill for several reasons. First, in spite of all the hype, if down gets wet it's going to be worthless until you can dry it out and that can take a long, long time even under the best of circumstances. and even so called water resistant down is still down and susceptible to getting very wet. Then you're screwed. Secondly, I feel down garments are less durable than synthetics. It's not the down itself, which is very resilient, but the shell itself which usually tends be to be prone to rips and abrasions allowing down to escape. Synthetic is much less likely to present that kind of problem. Finally, there is the cost factor. A synthetic garment is gong to be considerably cheaper than a down one of equal quality. Of course, down is much warmer for the weight although synthetics have come a long way in that category lately. And down is certainly more compactible. But for your requirements, I think water resistance and durability trump the advantages of compressiblity and weight/warmth ratio. Don't get me wrong. I love my down garments but if it's going to be a prolonged and possibly quite wet trip, I'll go with my synthetic jacket. I often layer it over a light weight down or fleece vest if I need extra warmth. JMO, mind you.
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swiftdream
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Post by swiftdream on Jan 11, 2019 8:51:28 GMT -8
I do not agree with he statement that synthetic puffies all have shorter lives than down. It probably depends on the brand to some extent and the actual materials used.
I have four weights of down jackets/ parkas and also have four puffie synthetic pieces. Most of them are Patagonia, one is Mountain Hardwear. Two of the Patagonia pieces are about 20 years old, worn often, used hard, stuffed helter skelter in the pack and washed occasionally. They still look and perform just super. They do indeed perform far better when wet though it is best to know how to keep any insulation dry of course. When down wets out it just disappears completely with zero loft. Synthetic puffies do not do that. Mine retain quite a bit of the loft.
But down is lighter weight and does compress better. The higher the fill power the better for those two factors.
If I were going to be in very wet environments or sweating and then putting on a puffy, then I’d still look at the modern synthetic puffies.
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daveg
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Michigan
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Post by daveg on Jan 11, 2019 10:03:03 GMT -8
I'm wondering whether you're asking too much of a single jacket. Below freezing, wet means snow. Down is fine for that. Above freezing, wet means rain. Down also works okay then if just sitting around under a shelter or rain shell. But down is problematic if one is talking about spending hours hiking in a cold rain.
I've spent weeks on the trail hiking in the temperature range you describe (20*F to 55*F). Some days were dry. Some days it was snowing. And some days it was 40*F and pouring rain. When I expect conditions like that, I take a fleece top, a synthetic puffy, and a down jacket. When it's raining, my down jacket is in a dry bag in my pack and I wear the fleece and/or synthetic puffy under my rain shell. They typically get damp -- a combination of some rain leaking through and sweat -- but keep me warm enough while I'm hiking (although I sometimes have to keep moving to stay warm). Once I make camp they tend to dry quickly from body heat, although I usually have to put on my down jacket to stay warm while they dry. When temperatures are below freezing, I can mix and match so I am comfortable.
Perhaps you could replace your wool vest with a synthetic puffy. I doubt there would be much weight penalty and the puffy may keep you warmer. Add a lightweight or mid-weight down jacket and you would have a versatile combination.
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tigger
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Post by tigger on Jan 11, 2019 14:56:06 GMT -8
And yet...another opinion.
From my experience, wet down and wet synthetic jackets...both suck. They wick the heat right out of you, literally. If it is going to be wet, having a great shell that isn't going to allow your insulating layers to get wet is critical. I've had experiences with wet synthetic insulation and the best thing I found to do was simply take it off. I was warmer with just my shell that wearing a wet insulating layer.
I've got four synthetic sleeping bags and two down ones. All of my down gear lofts up like it was new and that includes my 20 some odd year old LandsEnd jackets. However, my newest synthetic sleeping bag has maybe half the loft of when I first bought it. That has been the case with all my synthetic layers. I won't buy a synthetic insulation layer, be it a sleeping bag or jacket again. I strongly suggest down as lasting much longer and a better value over the long run. Lighter, lofts better, lasts longer, and compresses better.
The job of keeping my insulation dry is that of my rain shell. I don't believe in "all-in-one" jackets so I expect that if I am wearing a down jacket in the rain, I will need my rain shell also. Even when it is dry snow and I'm wearing my insulating jacket, I still put on my rain shell. If I get too warm, I undo the pitzips and let it vent, but I won't take off that shell. If anything, I'll pull off my puffy jacket, put my spare base layer on, and put my puffy back in my pack.
...just rambling thoughts.
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swiftdream
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the Great Southwest Unbound
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Post by swiftdream on Jan 11, 2019 15:46:11 GMT -8
In my own experience down looses loft over time too. It just does it in increments that are hard for many to sense. So I used to think he same thing, down does not loose its loft. However when I launder my down It does indeed fill up its storage sack much fuller than before. The problem is, not many people ever wash their down. Some of us here do but not all.
Now stuffing damp down is not supposed to be good for it but I’ve stuffed damp synthetics with no ill effects. Hike while snowing, stop for a break or photography and throw on my synthetic puffy, gets a little damp but still super warm, take it off and stuff it damp and continue on in a synthetic shirt.
And my 20 year old synthetic puffy from Patagonia didn’t ever loose enough loft to matter. It was too warm. I still wear my synthetic puffy Patagonia vest many days every winter. It takes a beating and keeps my core warm.
I’ve only used down sleeping bags for the last 48 years so I cannot testify to the performance of synthetic there.
I do agree with a totally wet garment of any kind is not good but my high power down with the ultra light shells of today will wet out fairly quickly (unlike some of my bags when trying to wash them), my Montbell UL down for example, while my minimalist Patagonia Nanopuff is much more moisture resistant. I’ll wear that 100 x more in winter here very carefree.
I like them both.
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Post by Magnus B. on Jan 11, 2019 16:34:59 GMT -8
Got a question: you posted a link to the OR parka at $325. Are you willing to go that high price-wise? That opens things up. You initially posted a $50 coat. Just how much are you willing to spend? Are you looking for a jacket that will last one trip or 10-20 years? I'd avoid synthetic fill; heavier, bulkier, shorter life. If you are going to lay out $325, there are much better options. OR makes great gear; have several pieces of their gear. $150-$250 is what I am looking to spend. If I fell in love with something that was $325.00, All the right pockets, perfect color ect. I might figure out a way to budget it, but I would like to stay lower. I have 2 buddies that spend a lot of time in the outdoors, and they both run synthetic puffys, and are big fans of them. One wears and Outdoor Reseach, and the other wears a Mont Bell. |
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Post by trinity on Jan 11, 2019 16:38:36 GMT -8
If you want some great information on synthetic insulation, I highly recommend the BPL podcast on the subject: link. If I had to choose one or the other, I'd go with down, but I own a lightweight synthetic and a lightweight down jacket, each has their place. For backpacking, the down jacket always comes with me. You can't beat the compressibility and the warmth to weight ratio of down. The REI jacket looks promising, but I can't find the amount of down fill anywhere. I think the most versatile piece of cold weather gear is an 800 fill or better down hoodie with around 3.5 ounces of down fill. I love my Patagonia Ultralight Down Hoodie, but I don't think it is made any longer. The most important factor, as with most things, is proper fit. Some here will prefer a jacket without a hood, but I think the hood adds a lot of warmth with a minimal weight penalty. |
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