tstle
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Post by tstle on Aug 21, 2021 2:23:17 GMT -8
Thanks Franco and HungryJack So left of Hidden Fork he got stuck, is it a waterfall which he was unable to climb? Because from my totally inexperienced eye it seems the creek goes downstream there? I was looking on Earth for the location, now I see the terrain is impossible to climb back up if you have no energy left. Even on Google earth 3d it looks manageble. Only the pictures of the area give a sense of how tall these ridges are.
I found this map with elevation. Red areas are the steepest
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Hungry Jack
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Post by Hungry Jack on Aug 21, 2021 9:21:21 GMT -8
I think he got stuck not far above the point where Long Valley connects with Tahquitz Creek gorge. Keep in mind that it is often harder to descend than ascend (that’s how hikers get cliffed out), and even a 10 ft wall can be an impasse. It also appears that Donovan was weakened and injured.
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Hungry Jack
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Post by Hungry Jack on Aug 21, 2021 9:28:26 GMT -8
Donovan was very experienced, but had a reputation for being poor at navigation and perhaps flippant about it. The obvious thing to do was to descend into Idyllwild at Saddle Junction (I have taken this trail and it is a quick descent). But he also could have made his way to the tram Station after traversing the upper basin. He was about a mile from it, with a trail leading to it.
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Post by jdon on Aug 23, 2021 6:31:09 GMT -8
Hello there fellow MrBallen enjoyers. After researching various satellite maps and corresponding height data for a bit I'm pretty confident I tracked down the exact sites. The first picture is from the same perspective as the one from tstle three posts back. John Donovan was supposedly found at 1340m (4400 feet). The bottom of the short cliff is EXACTLY at this altitude according to Google Earth. The bottom of the larger, narrower cliff is at 1265m (4150 feet). My hypothesis is that the large cliff is the dead end that trapped John Donovan and the couple, while the smaller cliff is where John Donovan seemed to have (accidentally) tumbled down and was later found. Notice how the larger cliff is located after the gorge narrows considerably, which matches the description of John Donovan and the couple of the impasse that trapped them. This is by far the steepest cliff in the area. The smaller cliff is approximately 25 feet down, which fits the description of the rescuers: "We stood on top on a 25 waterfall and saw what looked like something green in the water below. We knew John had a green tarp and assumed that it was Johns. While Patrick and I searched around Jim went around the waterfall and found John." The last picture details the location of the small cliff from different satellite data where it is a lot easier to see that there are rocks sticking out, which matches the photos of the small waterfall where the rescuers found John Donovan. Requiescat in pace. Google Earth locations hereAlternative satellite data from Zoom Earth here
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Hungry Jack
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Post by Hungry Jack on Aug 23, 2021 17:23:30 GMT -8
Impressive sleuthing jdon!
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tstle
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Post by tstle on Aug 24, 2021 11:17:40 GMT -8
In this 'date from hell' episode they show the waterfall from a view as if the couple got stuck and were standing at the bottom of the waterfall. youtu.be/Q10-mB2FG7s?t=1993But it seems the real impasse is the high waterfall where they could not descend right?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2021 16:53:25 GMT -8
Why do the waterfalls not show in the satellite images?
Also the couple Brandon and Gina tell their story in a show called I Shouldn't Be Alive, and their description of the area doesn't sound similar to the satellite view of it. They describe when they get to the "gorge" that to their left was straight rock walls and to their right was a bowl shape, but where the 15 meter mark was mapped by jdon above me its the opposite. Maybe this is just the couple mixing up the facts? They also say the water fall is 140-150 foot waterfall, so if that is the case the 15 meter one would be like 1/3 of that size.
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Hungry Jack
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Post by Hungry Jack on Sept 2, 2021 18:44:58 GMT -8
Why do the waterfalls not show in the satellite images? Depends when the satellite image was taken. There may not have been much flow in the falls, or none at all, if it was taken in late summer or early fall.
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tstle
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Post by tstle on Sept 5, 2021 0:36:50 GMT -8
On some satellite views it's hard to see the real elevation because the sun is coming low from the south. So the shadow of peaks can cover other peaks / high terrain that seems low because of it. First find the aerial tramway to see how the shadows really fall.
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Hungry Jack
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Post by Hungry Jack on Sept 5, 2021 14:22:25 GMT -8
Everything we have read indicates that Donovan was found in the lower portion of Hidden Creek / Fork of Long Valley. If so, Donovan took quite a route coming up the Tahquitz ridge and traversing the western edge of the basin before turning east into Long Valley. When he left that couple at Saddle Junction, an easterly route off trail would have put him into the Tahquitz Creek drainage.
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tstle
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Post by tstle on Sept 11, 2021 2:15:43 GMT -8
They describe when they get to the "gorge" that to their left was straight rock walls and to their right was a bowl shape Think I found the bowl. Somehow Google Maps shows different dated images randomly. I now saw it with no shadows, taken with the sun at high point. Google earth is probably not that realistic. I gues they have raw data and interpolate / guess / smooth that out to make a 3d image. That doesn't do justice to the true steepness of the terrain. The height of the waterfall is probably a bad guess from the couple. It's probably hard to estimate the correct height. Especially in a terrain where there are no familiar objects like a house to compare it to. Here is the bowl. After coming down waterfall 1 they finally got into the bowl she talks about in the documentary. Sheer rock to the left and a giant bowl to the right. I wouldn't be surprised if the bowl is way steeper than google earth makes of it in 3d. After the bowl they must have encountered the impasse waterfall. A bit before the bowl there is a little pond, which might be where waterfall nr 1 is located.
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tstle
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Post by tstle on Sept 11, 2021 2:19:33 GMT -8
Makes you wonder how many people in ancient times have gotten stuck here with no way out... or perhaps they were tougher and better prepared.
Would be interesting to make this trip.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2021 14:30:14 GMT -8
Tahhloos mey'qwa'ivash (people-eater)
Cahuilla use the above term to refer to things in our world that "eat people"
For example, pal nukat (ocean) is a tahloos mey'qwa'ivash Also, Takwush canyon is a tahloos mey'qwa'ivash
Cahuilla stayed out of that canyon, and years ago a desert Cahuilla elder advised me to do the same
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Post by jdon on Sept 23, 2021 3:13:06 GMT -8
Google earth is probably not that realistic. I gues they have raw data and interpolate / guess / smooth that out to make a 3d image. That doesn't do justice to the true steepness of the terrain. It's hard to say how accurate exactly Google Earth's heightmap is, but it seems to be a surprisingly good approximation, even when the satellite picture is shadowy or when a crevice is only a couple meters wide, so smoothing out doesn't seem to be that big of an issue. I think it's just the satellite images that are overlayed on the heightmap which are shitty and low res, not the height map itself.
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