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Post by giraut on Sept 24, 2016 18:54:19 GMT -8
Yesterday, I was hiking alone down a trail in the Shenandoah NP, about 5 miles from the trailhead. Suddenly, I heard a rattle near me and then saw a timber rattlesnake coiled under a rotten tree stump by the side of the trail about 3 feet away, clearly unhappy with me. I was surprised, since I thought rattlesnakes would only get riled up if they were being messed with. Anyway, I kept moving and that was that, except later I asked myself what I would do if it had bitten me.
My research suggests a lone hiker should try to make it back to where he or she can get to a hospital for antivenom, but if I were 5 miles into the hike, that would be a long walk with venom coursing through my body.
So I began thinking about a PLB, which would allow me to call for help. The best one for this situation seemed to be the ACR ResQLink. But then I had a thought: What I would need at that point wouldn't be a military search and rescue team complete with helicopter and armed commandos. What I would need would be someone who knew Shenandoah pretty well -- some park rangers, for example -- and could find me and either get me to a hospital quickly or administer the antivenom there. I don't think there are a lot of places for a helicopter to land where I was, anyway.
This is what confuses me about PLBs and SMs like the Delorme or Spot. It doesn't seem like they contact the right people. Or am I missing something here?
thanks, giraut
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tigger
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Post by tigger on Sept 24, 2016 19:07:55 GMT -8
PLB's are registered. When you activate them, Rescue will be coming. Based upon your coordinates that are broadcast, help will arrive via SAR, Police, Sheriff Deputy, or military.
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Post by High Sierra Fan on Sept 24, 2016 20:05:36 GMT -8
"Armed commandos"? Strange dream. Try here for the reality. www.sarsat.noaa.govFor a more nuanced conversation the Inreach system does the job with its two-way capability versus the FCC certified PLB. The response, assuming you did more than just send "SOS" would be tailored to your issue and local resources are what gets called on (as there are NO central national responders sitting on a hot pad waiting to launch a mission): miniguns and napalm optional. Oh and modern electronic devices strive to take out the necessity for "knowing Shenandoah"" as they send a GPS position of the beacon along with the digital identity of the device and its associated information (FCC certified OZkBs must be registered with NOAA). Also modern helicopter technique doesn't require the aircraft to land for either personnel deployment or victim recovery. They've adapted the marine rescue hoist systems for that. You may have read about military aircraft because that's what tends to be the capable aircrsft for the higher elevations though recently even that's changing, Yosemite charters a civilian high elevation capable helicopter for instance. And many agencies fly helicopters and get called in to aid in search and rescue. I read one just a little while ago where an NYPD helicopter aircrew plucked two stranded hikers off a cliff section of Storm King Mountain. Not bad for city cops. "rotor tips twenty feet from the rock face...." mobile.nytimes.com/2011/02/21/nyregion/21rescue.html?action=click&module=Search®ion=searchResults&mabReward=relbias:w,[%22RI:6%22,%22RI:14%22]&url=http:/query.nytimes.com/search/sitesearch/%3Faction%3Dclick%26region%3DMasthead%26pgtype%3DHomepage%26module%3DSearchSubmit%26contentCollection%3DHomepage%26t%3Dqry432%23/%22West+Point%22+and+%22storm+king%22+and+cadets+and+helicopter&referer=http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/05/13/nyregion/new-york-city-police-helicopter-rescues-injured-hiker.html?_r=0&referer=
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BigLoad
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Post by BigLoad on Sept 24, 2016 20:42:06 GMT -8
The best one for this situation seemed to be the ACR ResQLink. That's what I carry.
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almostthere
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Post by almostthere on Sept 25, 2016 7:52:19 GMT -8
You only get a helicopter ride if a) it's daylight b) it's not storming c) there's somewhere for it to land, or it's safe to drop someone on a line. If you are in the middle of a dense forest, that'll be tough.
The rest of the time you'll get someone on foot, perhaps horseback. That'll take a while.
Probably you'll be calmly hiked out, as rattlers don't envenomate every single bite, and that's the protocol -- take the bitten person to a hospital for treatment. No one carries antivenom around with them. And not every search team includes a medical professional who can administer medications. For there to be a doctor on the spot, that doctor has to volunteer for SAR -- they don't get paid to be there.
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Post by giraut on Sept 25, 2016 8:10:16 GMT -8
Thanks a lot for all these replies. All helpful. giraut
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ogg
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Post by ogg on Sept 25, 2016 8:11:16 GMT -8
The Delorme InReach and SPOT both have an SOS function that can initiate a SAR as a PLB does, though the specifics of the technology and protocols differ somewhat. The great thing about the InReach is the two-way messaging capability. This can be very useful for a variety of non-emergency reasons, such as changing an itinerary at the last minute or simply letting people know you are OK. The SPOT has more limited messaging capability and is only one-way. Both InReach and SPOT have a tracking capability. The Delorme InReach can be paired with a cell phone via bluetooth, and with Delorme's Earthmate app installed on the phone, can function as a simple GPS with map display and also makes typing messages easier. For peace of mind at home while you are out in the wilderness, the InReach and SPOT offer more than a PLB. They are not for everyone though, some folks feel that getting away from the gadgetry and technological complexities that seems to run our everyday lives is an important aspect of backpacking. A PLB can be tucked away and forgotten until needed. I have a Delorme InReach and have found it invaluable.
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almostthere
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Post by almostthere on Sept 25, 2016 9:43:38 GMT -8
For peace of mind with two way communication devices such as SPOT, very carefully explain to the people at home that they SHOULD NOT PANIC and call for help if there is a disruption in communication.
I use a straight up PLB. I refuse to cause MORE anxiety than the stupid things are supposed to alleviate -- or trigger a frivolous, time and money wasting SAR. They fail, spectacularly sometimes, and they can be left on a rock, stolen, broken -- no thank you. I'll spend my money elsewhere and use reconn.org and leave good information, complete with possible alternate plans in the case of weather or some sort of disability on the part of someone in the group, if someone's injured.
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Post by johntpenca on Sept 25, 2016 14:26:11 GMT -8
This is off topic and may seem curmudgeonly, but when I started backpacking, backcountry skiing and climbing, the last thing we wanted was to require a rescue. We relied on skill, preparation and caution to not get over our heads. Requiring a rescue was considered the most odious of offenses. Most of us would rather die than need a rescue. Or so we told ourselves.
I'm struggling with this post as my brain is going so many ways. I understand technology is morphing into an ingrained part of younger peoples psyche. I still go out (solo) with only a few topos and a compass. If you go out expecting to have a readily available rescue, that is short thinking. You are putting the SAR folks in peril. On the other hand, if one does get into a predicament it is best if the SAR can identify your location as quickly as possible.
Still remember one of Blue Bears old TRs where he inadvertently lost his Spot, which resulted in a fairly significant rescue effort. He was fine and continued on.
So, to wrap this up, do what you need to do to make yourself and loved ones comfortable. But from my view, personal responsibility and skills are the the most important aspects of being in the backcountry.
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almostthere
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Post by almostthere on Sept 25, 2016 14:50:10 GMT -8
Not to mention -- avoiding snakebite is pretty darn easy. The statistics tell us that people dying of snakebite each year in the continental US is absolutely insignificant, when you hold it up against the number of people who die of hypothermia, lightning strikes, etc.
The top killer in the animal kingdom is the bee. You can count the number of rattlesnake related deaths on a single hand -- bees take out hundreds of people each year. And the typical rattlesnake victim is a 20something male, usually preceded by those immortal words, "watch this." In other words -- watch where you walk and don't pick up the #$%@$ snake.
I've seen many and never had a single rattler even bare its fangs. Rattle, sure, but they don't want to waste the venom on you, you're way too big to eat.
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Post by johntpenca on Sept 25, 2016 15:13:52 GMT -8
I've seen many and never had a single rattler even bare its fangs. Rattle, sure, but they don't want to waste the venom on you, you're way too big to eat. Funny and true. The older rattlers (to my understanding) are not that big a threat; it's the young ones that pose a larger threat as they have not learned to modulate their venom injection dose. I've been doing a lot of activities in the Sierra and SoCal for years. Been rattled at but just back off and no problemo. Just don't aggravate them.
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Post by giraut on Sept 25, 2016 15:25:44 GMT -8
Dear johntp and almostthere,
I don't think this is off-topic or curmudgeonly at all; rather, I thank you for your insight.
Of course, I don't want to require a rescue. Of course, I plan and take precautions and learn skills so that I don't get into a pickle. I started hiking when I was 14, which was in 1970, so I am old-school at heart. While I am not a Luddite, I am not a technophile, either, and I don't go into the woods to use my gadgets. I rely on topo maps and a compass when I need navigation help (which I usually don't, since I mainly stay on blazed trails), but I sometimes bring a GPS because they're kind of fun. There, I've admitted it -- some things I do just because they're fun, and there's no other reason for them.
That said, I have no interest in "macho for macho's sake." I have nothing to prove to anyone, and it's a simple matter of what might happen and what would I do if it did. People have broken limbs and gotten deep gashes on hiking trips I've been on; once someone had a severe asthma attack and had forgotten her inhaler, so she was in a pretty bad way. Two days ago, I saw a rattlesnake 3 feet from me and heard its rattle, and while it didn't bare its fangs to strike, it sort of looked to me like it could have. Though what you say, almost there, makes total sense, I don't want to bet my life on my educated guess about what a rattler wants or doesn't want at any given moment, especially since it doesn't cost me much to be prepared for a worst-case scenario. I like to hike alone. If I'm a mile or two from the trailhead, even if I'm envenomated, I figure I can drop my pack and walk out to get to a hospital. If I'm 10 miles from being out of the woods, and I haven't seen anyone on the trail for hours or at all, then I don't know if I'd necessarily make it. I have a family, and I'd hate to rob them of my lovely presence in their lives.
I tend not to take extreme hikes, like climbing Denali for example, and I don't like risk for risk's sake, so I'm not likely to find myself in serious danger. But it's possible. So, my thought was that, though I would absolutely use a beacon as a last resort, when there really was a possibility I (or someone else) could kick the bucket, it doesn't change my philosophy of backpacking to have one of these devices in my pack. I don't think it would "taint" me in any perceptible way.
But again, these are really salutary reminders and good points you make, and I thank you for them.
giraut
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almostthere
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Post by almostthere on Sept 25, 2016 15:54:05 GMT -8
If you really want to get back alive, use reconn.org
Seriously, that's the real backup. Give them reliable information so when the PLB fails to transmit, or you knock yourself out in a ravine and have zero opportunity to use it, you'll actually have a chance.
I cannot tell you how many SAR operations that are called off because no one knows where to even start looking for you. Those family members need GOOD information to give to the law enforcement folks. Not confused information, or 'he might have gone to lake woebegone, maybe Mt Katahdin, I dunno.'
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Post by High Sierra Fan on Sept 25, 2016 21:20:43 GMT -8
Who says the plb or other beacon is for the hiker? If you leave any itinerary at all, acquire a wilderness permit or park a vehicle at a trailhead should you become immobilized and so overdue a search will be launched and that will cause a lot of people and resources to be consumed. A few summers back I was up at Tuolumne Meadows when a woman went missing from Vogelsang: 350 searchers were involved at the peak and numerous aircraft.... that's rough country up there and helicopters don't fly cheap. Or the woman whose remains were recently found two miles off the AT up in Maine: after a huge search over many weeks turned up empty. Also placing ground searchers into hazardous terrain and running up the expense (and also some risk) of air search resources.
Other than for an immediate fatality that's where a beacon can prove of value IMHO: in making that widespread generalized search response much less so. Focused as it would be on the gps position information transmitted with the initial assistance needed signal.
I prefer my solo hiking but that doesn't mean I have to impose negative consequences on others for my choice. So I carry a PLB, it's not some magic wand but it's better than the general information of where I'd planned to be: I cover a LOT of ground in two weeks, and plenty of it is rough so I try and help the odds a bit with a beacon. When it's time for an upgrade (FCC certified beacons have a specified service life beyond which they're decertified and service centers won't update the 5 year battery) I might go with something more along the lines of the InReach as I can see circumstances such as a moderately immobilizing injury where I'd be significantly delayed but capable of self extraction, albeit hobbling, and communication beyond a PLB signal would actually prevent a search that would otherwise be triggered simply by my not meeting my end date plus safety margin. I'd like that.
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bcpete
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Post by bcpete on Sept 26, 2016 15:44:08 GMT -8
Delorme has GPS functions in their higher end unit. We got rid of our old GPS, and replaced it with Delorme - and gained the whole texting/SOS function as a bonus - with essentially no extra weight of our old GPS.
My wife & I bought the Delorme Inreach primarily for two reasons that aren't associated with the more obvious SOS function reason.
First & foremost was the fact the about half of our hikes are at trailheads that are very much off the beaten path - like 2 to 4 days worth of walking to the nearest highway (and the odds that someone else would be driving that back road during those days isn't that likely). So what do you do if you vehicle craps out? We did a hike last year that was over 60 kms from the nearest highway, and the next day (in our driveway) our Jeep wouldn't start - totally crapped out battery. If that happened at the trailhead, it would have been a major pain - and probably would have had some kind of unnecessary SAR event triggered. With Delorme, we can probably arrange a ride within 8 hours if our vehicle craps out in the middle of nowhere.
The second reason for getting Delorme is the fact that both my wife & my parents are all still alive, but getting very much up there in age. If something were to happen to them, and we're on day 1 of a 5 day trip ... well, that would be a bit of a problem. With Delorme, people can reach us if necessary. We might not get the message very quickly (we don't have the unit on all the time), but it would be faster than waiting until we're home from any trip.
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