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Post by leadbelly on Apr 8, 2024 6:55:56 GMT -8
I'm too old to call anything a "hack," and unlike when I started serious hiking in my teens and college years, I can afford to spend a little more to get the gear I want. However, having self-funded my outdoors addiction from a young age, i'm conscious that many people who love being outdoors operate within a limited budget, or the hobby doesn't occupy enough of a place in their life to warrant serious expenditures.
In many cases, I think you get what you pay for with outdoors gear in terms of design, features, and durability. If you buy more durable gear and amortize the cost over the period of time you use it, I think the math is favorable. One ultimately spends less on gear if the tent, sleeping bag, jacket, hiking shoe etc. lasts longer, so you don't wear them out and need to replace them as often. Plus, the gear may have benefits in terms of features or lower weight.
It's not always the case, though, and there are good options for a reasonable price in my opinion. Recent examples I've noted:
1. Sierra Designs. I have feeling the company hit some economic hard times; it was acquired at some point by Exxel Outdoors, which also owns Kelty, Wenzel, Slumberjack, and a few other brands I haven't heard of. However, a relatively recent test of one of their lightweight down jackets, the Whitney Hoodie, impressed me. It may not have been the lightest or best-design jacket available, but it had 800 fill power dridown, it was reasonably lightweight, and functionally, it did a really nice job and was enjoyable to wear. (son who also spends time outdoors absconded with it because the Mountain Hardwear Ghost Whistperer hoody I passed along to him had a zipper failure. MH honored their very good warranty and re-zippered the jacket, no cost except to ship the jacket to them. I expect to get that Sierra Designs jacket back at some point!).
2. REI and EMS house brands. I've been hiking and working out quite a bit in REI branded running shorts and wicking shirts, and they are both highly functional and very economical. The shorts don't have normal pockets, just a small zippered pouch at the small of the back for a smart phone and a very small side pocket that could stash a set of keys, but the fabric is great, excellent drawstring, they're really comfortable and wick nicely. REI's own-branded wicking shirts are a bargain and very close to being as functional as much more expensive options. I've also had good experience with REI's Flash backpacks and inexpensive two-person tents. they're not the lightest or most feature-heavy options, but they're solid and tend to be built to last. (I would still favor a ULA lightweight backpack, or maybe something from Granite Gear - REI's backpack pricing isn't as favorable as it used to be. You can also spend a fair bit more on some pretty light and functional REI tents, pricing isn't much different than Big Agnes, Sea to Summit, Nemo). REI has a pretty good warranty/return policy, though it's no longer lifetime like it used to be.
3. LL Bean - I tend to look to these guys primarily for casual things and accessories - the weight penalty for their hiking-oriented gear is too severe for me, despite some very good pricing. Their gear does last, it's usually functional, and they normally honor their guarantee.
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Post by swmtnbackpacker on Apr 8, 2024 9:47:35 GMT -8
These are massive corporations and they’ll usually swing for “good enuf”. They’ll have the sewing labor do certain stitches for the minimum to the point of preventing excess returns or warranty actions. Thats it. It works for most but businesses that big have to go with the math even if the brand suffers long-term. Discount gear is almost always worse. Either way I don’t want it to fail on the middle of nowhere. On the other end of the spectrum is a cottage shop like MLD (USA .. VA) that won’t compromise on say the # of bar tacks on one of their packs.
It also brings up materials. If not getting premium stitching, why pay for primo materials on packs? After a bit a user will be left with some nice loose panels of materials unless resewing is explicitly covered under the warranty.
Shelters are a different deal due to the amount of material involved. To get the lightest shelter for a thru hike, maybe stitching doesn’t have to be perfect as 0.5 DCF (“cuben fiber”) won’t last 3,000 miles anyways (can patch with duct tape but still).
That said if Osprey came out with “my perfect pack”, I might take them up due to the lifetime warranty and perceived stability of the company. As is looking at a smaller volume pack in Ultra 200 X fabric/Dyneema mesh all over, including running vest suspension for multiuse role. If Ultra X is as good as they claim, the pack will likely outlast me.
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Post by cweston on Apr 9, 2024 13:09:07 GMT -8
I think it's this simple: it largely comes down to what ppl are willing to pay.
If you're willing to pay high-end cottage industry prices for ultra-light gear, you can get some amazing pieces. (Which may or may not last for years.)
I'm willing to spend, to an extent, for the big items: because you can reduce your weight considerably by going lighter on your pack, shelter, and sleep system; and also because these items are so crucial to a successful trip that I'm not willing to risk trying something that might be more likely to fail. My goto tents, pack, and quilt are all from cottage brands.
With smaller items, I'm much more likely to weigh an ounce or two of weight savings against the cost and decide that what I have is just fine.
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Post by stevet on Apr 10, 2024 20:38:18 GMT -8
99.9% of my gear today is not from the big guys. That said, given I've been backpacking for 55 years, I have come across some better than adequate gear from both big names and big retailers. Most notable:
Kelty Tioga Pack - got more than 20 years out of it Sierra Designs Tents - a 4 season Stretch Prelude dome, a Meteor Lite, and a Clip Flashlight. The Stretch Prelude was our family tent that we plumb wore out, the other 2 I gave away still in good shape after about 10 years of use when I switched to tarp/bivy for my shelter. REI - their "baggies" knockoff shorts, their capilene knockoff thermals, and the primaloft UL vest (circa ~2000) they offered for one season. I might have gotten a year or two more use out of the paty stuff they copied, but for the same functionality and 1/2 the cost they were all great deals.
Today I feel the worst for REI. They've had no branded gear of interest to me in ~15 years. I still shop them (just bought a solo windmaster stove) but their branded gear is best suited for carrying a laptop into the office or wearing for an afternoon matinee with the grandkids than anything i'd ever trust out on the trail. They've really lost their way.
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Post by downriver on Apr 12, 2024 11:00:48 GMT -8
I think it's this simple: it largely comes down to what ppl are willing to pay. If you're willing to pay high-end cottage industry prices for ultra-light gear, you can get some amazing pieces. (Which may or may not last for years.) I'm willing to spend, to an extent, for the big items: because you can reduce your weight considerably by going lighter on your pack, shelter, and sleep system; and also because these items are so crucial to a successful trip that I'm not willing to risk trying something that might be more likely to fail. My goto tents, pack, and quilt are all from cottage brands. With smaller items, I'm much more likely to weigh an ounce or two of weight savings against the cost and decide that what I have is just fine. I think footwear is on par with pack, shelter and sleep system. So, one should be willing to spend more on quality boots or trail shoes due to their importance. Regards, DR
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Post by downriver on Apr 12, 2024 11:12:51 GMT -8
Stevet posted: “ Today I feel the worst for REI. They've had no branded gear of interest to me in ~15 years. I still shop them (just bought a solo windmaster stove) but their branded gear is best suited for carrying a laptop into the office or wearing for an afternoon matinee with the grandkids than anything i'd ever trust out on the trail. They've really lost their way.”
REI gear just doesn’t do it for me. I’ve looked at their daypacks, synthetic and down jackets, and their bags. Affordable products, but not the best quality. I’d prefer to spend a little more and get a much better product.
Not too long ago I was looking at getting one of their Flash daypacks; it was affordable but not the best quality. I got a Salewa pack at a comparable price; it was a much better product in terms of fabric and quality.
Regards,
DR
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Post by trinity on Apr 12, 2024 12:45:01 GMT -8
REI gear just doesn’t do it for me. Currently, I am in the same boat. I used their tents for years, and they were really quite good, especially the Half Domes for car camping, and even the Quarter Domes for backpacking. I recently bought a Half Dome 4 to replace a worn out older one, and it doesn't feel very durable. Time will tell. Their Magma bags and Helix pads are very highly regarded. For anyone looking to get into backbacking, I would recommend REI branded gear without hesitation, due to quality, price, and return-ability. But I am at a stage in life where quality is much more important than affordability.
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Post by cweston on Apr 12, 2024 13:13:27 GMT -8
Last year, I bought an REI Wonderland 4 tent (along with the add-on vestibule that the tent really doesn't work very well without.)
The tent itself is very well designed and seems like it will last for as long as my wife is willing to go car camping with me. (The extended porch is more meh.) It's a pretty high-quality product. I wouldn't exactly call a 400-some dollar tent "affordable," but whatever. For this type of gear, I think REI is quite competitive in terms of price and quality.
But, as you say, pretty-much none of my BPing kit is REI-brand anymore, except for the Flash 18 pack that is my goto summit pack when I pack one.
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jazzmom
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Post by jazzmom on Apr 12, 2024 16:03:47 GMT -8
OK, everybody, say it with me... "My name is (fill in the blank) and I'm a gear snob." I bought a $55 Patagonia T-shirt last week. FIFTY-FIVE dollars. For a T-shirt. I somehow justified it because I went to a Vuori store in Boston earlier in the week to get a pair of sweats (pretty sure I'm not supposed to be calling them "sweats") that are constantly sold out around here and they were nice enough to give me a 20% discount, plus there's no sales tax on clothes in Massachusetts. These sweats from one of the "fastest growing outdoor specialty brands" that I love so much are normally $100. A HUNDRED dollars. For a pair of sweats. I think we have collectively lost our minds. I also think it makes us feel better doing it in the name of "quality". And that's reinforced by reviewers who rave about the quality because they, too, need to believe that. And, yes, things last longer... because I'm line-drying those sweats I paid $100 bucks for... I pay more for certain pieces of gear because they're lighter, and that requires expensive materials. I don't know that I can call that better quality just because the materials are more expensive. It certainly doesn't make them more durable. In fact, I think much of the preference for cottage industry products is because of their weight-savings, and that's partially achieved because they're not made as robustly; a little less stitching, taping, lighter zippers, minimal seam allowances. Yes, I'm being sarcastic but I'm also going to admit that I pay more for the so-called "high-end" gear mostly because I can and it gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling that I'm getting a *better* product. And now on to my favorite $95 flip-flops from Olukai...
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Post by downriver on Apr 12, 2024 17:31:00 GMT -8
Jazzmom,
Do you routinely ask for a discount when out buying gear & apparel? If not, I’d strongly encourage asking because the worst they can do is say no. Patagonia will not give you a discount; however, a lot of other gear & outdoor apparel makers and vendors will. Today, I was talking with the customer service rep at Mammut; he was kind enough to give me a nice discount when I asked. He also voluntarily offered to check on something for me not gear or apparel related (employment). Mammut has provided me with excellent customer service recently.
I’ve also had good luck asking REI and Backcountry for discounts over the last year. Both gave between 15-20% off during non-sale time periods when I asked. Black Diamond was another gear maker who gave me 15% when asked.
I’m sure you know most all outdoor gear & apparel makers will give you some type of a discount if you sign up for their email list.
Hit Olukai up for a discount on those $95 dollar flip-flops…Lol…
Happy Trails,
DR
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driftwoody
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Post by driftwoody on Apr 12, 2024 18:44:30 GMT -8
It's worth spending extra for gear you'll be satisfied with, not tempted to replace with something better. In my early days I compromised for inexpensive, and ended up spending more with additional purchases.
When it comes to the latest & greatest cutting edge gear, after a certain point small increments in ultralight performance aren't worth the escalating price.
I try to be strategic now, and always buy at discount. Also, improved function is worth a couple ounces.
Bottom line is being happy with your gear in the field.
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jazzmom
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Post by jazzmom on Apr 13, 2024 5:37:56 GMT -8
Bottom line is being happy with your gear in the field. Yes, exactly. I may have been overly harsh in calling it snobbery but I just think it's mostly about being able to buy what I want... helps soften getting old. Ironically, though, I care about the "latest and greatest" less and less. Do you routinely ask for a discount when out buying gear & apparel? No, never. I've learned to negotiate a little in countries where it's custom to do so but that's it. The Vuori store gave me the discount simply because my name wasn't in their system, so I was technically a first-time buyer. My approach to sales has changed too. If something I need/want is on sale, I consider it a bonus, but I'm no longer tempted by those deals that are "too good to pass up."
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rebeccad
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Post by rebeccad on Apr 13, 2024 7:31:30 GMT -8
I have reached a place where I can afford to get the expensive stuff. And when it comes to lightening my load, I’m pretty ready to spend what needs spending. But when it comes to clothing, not so much. It needs to fill the need—so I get quality socks and underwear, for example—but shirts and t-shirts? I want to be able to wear them out and switch them out without fretting about it. That’s the theory. The reality is that I hardly ever buy new shirts, since they are lasting very well. Pants are another story. I’m harder on them. And since none of them fit, I can buy whatever fits here and there—and uses a fabric I like (which isn’t always the expensive stuff).
I drool over various layers but can’t really justify buying essentially redundant gear. My down hoodie is warm enough for any conditions I care to be out in, and light enough to stuff in the pack for emergencies. It doesn’t look as nice as some of those Patagonia down sweaters or whatever, but my inner cheapskate says who cares?
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Post by cweston on Apr 13, 2024 7:41:49 GMT -8
What rebeccad said pretty-well describes me. I don’t overspend on clothing except very specific outdoor items: merino base layers, hiking socks, etc., and I generally only buy those pieces to replace previous pieces that have worn out. (I buy a couple fresh pairs of wool hiking socks about yearly, and relegate the older pairs to around-the-house wear.) I recently bought a pair of nice chinos from Mountain Khakis, and I think it was the most I’ve ever paid for a pair of pants. Definitely not my norm. I’m not completely oblivious to fashion—I want to look put together in an age-appropriate sort of way: not like “trying too hard Dad.” If I lived in the mountains and were out hiking all the time, that might shift my priorities a little on outdoor pieces.
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swiftdream
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Post by swiftdream on Apr 13, 2024 10:03:33 GMT -8
REI gear just doesn’t do it for me. That’s just too general for my logic. While I don’t buy all of my equipment from any one place, my daypack which I use the living daylights out of is REI brand and usually lasts me about five or more years. The Flash 18 has been and is ingenious ( imo which is different from yours), super light, carries the essentials and is normally very low cost, less than thirty bucks on sale which happens multiple times a year. The Flash 18 is the only REI item in my kit but everything is from different companies. Even the rain jacket and pants are different companies. It’s harder to find sales on some cottage gear but I rarely replace my gear unless it wears out like shoes which I buy every four months but I can always find a good sale on them, Keen Arroyo 2s so I’ll buy a couple months in advance when the opportunity arises. Got 40% off my recent pair that are awaiting July before deployment into the hinterlands. In general I get what I want and look for sales but price isn’t what ends up driving the choices.
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