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Post by autumnmist on Jul 14, 2019 8:13:50 GMT -8
MODS: I'm posting here as opposed to the Environmental Forum b/c of the questions I ask; I'm hoping for more input on remediation than might be available through the Environmental Forum. But feel free to transfer it if you wish. www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/a-new-drinking-water-crisis-hits-us-military-bases-across-the-nation/ar-AAEhcai?ocid=spartandhpPFAS contamination has been in our local news more frequently in the last several weeks, but w/o much detail. It now appears that Michigan has more PFAS contamination in water than any other state. And PFAS are also apparently extensively found around military bases. It can be a causal factor for cancer. I've just remembered that back in the late 1980s, the wife of an Army officer friend who lived on base at Selfridge raised the issue that both she and a friend developed gestational diabetes during pregnancy. Her friend lived on base as well. They were wondering then if there was some contaminant that had affected both. The article doesn't address gestational diabetes and PFAS, but I'm going to check it out. How many millions, if not trillions of people might be affected? 712 documented contaminated sites have apparently been identified. See the map in the cited article. I wonder how much of the 911 Responders' illnesses and deaths are specifically due to PFAS exposure, from all the firefighting done on scene, since the compound is related to firefighting materials. Thinking about remediation, if it's possible, does anyone use filtered water at home? If so, what kind of filter do you use? Have you had your water tested before and after installation of the filter? What about bottled water? Since it's in plastic bottles, I haven't felt that it was a desirable option. But does anyone know of bottled water that isn't in plastic bottles? Any other thoughts or suggestions on mitigating the damage already done and protecting myself in the future? (Besides escaping Michigan). (This doesn't bode well for Michigan tourism.)
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walkswithblackflies
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Post by walkswithblackflies on Jul 15, 2019 10:45:36 GMT -8
I'm in the environmental (soil/groundwater) industry, and we are beginning to test for PFAS. I can PM you some documentation about PFAS. Keep in mind that the primary source of exposure is drinking water. If someone is on municipal water, chances are they are not significantly exposed as nearly every municipal water system is run through carbon filters. Also note that we're talking concentrations of PFAS in the parts-per-TRILLION. Concentrations so low that labs have just begun to be able to reliably detect. In fact, there isn't a specific analysis to be run for PFAS... the accepted method is merely a modification of another method. It now appears that Michigan has more PFAS contamination in water than any other state. --- They probably have just tested more. NYS is currently testing all their brownfield sites. I've just remembered that back in the late 1980s, the wife of an Army officer friend who lived on base at Selfridge raised the issue that both she and a friend developed gestational diabetes during pregnancy. Her friend lived on base as well. They were wondering then if there was some contaminant that had affected both. The article doesn't address gestational diabetes and PFAS, but I'm going to check it out. --- Gestational diabetes isn't uncommon. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if two women on-base had it. Plus, what would be their unique exposure and what would the level of that exposure be? (Note: If they were firefighters, I could definitely see that as a potential exposure) How many millions, if not trillions of people might be affected? 712 documented contaminated sites have apparently been identified. See the map in the cited article. --- We are all exposed. But are we exposed to a dangerous level? Probably not, or sickness would be more pronounced. I wonder how much of the 911 Responders' illnesses and deaths are specifically due to PFAS exposure, from all the firefighting done on scene, since the compound is related to firefighting materials. --- Close to zero. There's no reason they were exposed to more PFAS than any other firefighters. The primary issues with 911 first responders have been dust-related. Thinking about remediation, if it's possible, does anyone use filtered water at home? If so, what kind of filter do you use? Have you had your water tested before and after installation of the filter? --- Simple carbon filtration (i.e. - Brita) has been shown to be effective. What about bottled water? Since it's in plastic bottles, I haven't felt that it was a desirable option. But does anyone know of bottled water that isn't in plastic bottles? --- The plastic itself should be fine. The water itself would need to be tested (and bottled water companies aren't required to test their water for PFAS or other chemicals). If someone drinks from a teflon-coated bottle, or teflon coated straw, there is the possibility of exposure. Any other thoughts or suggestions on mitigating the damage already done and protecting myself in the future? (Besides escaping Michigan). (This doesn't bode well for Michigan tourism.) --- Check to see if your municipality analyzes for PFAS (in their required annual water quality report). If you're on well water, get a carbon filter... either household (at your house main) or point-source (at the faucet of your potable water). --- Use soft utensils with teflon-coated cookware, and throw out cookware if the coating is in poor condition. --- Replace old, worn "Scotch-guarded" carpets with new (released fibers could possibly be ingested). Don't get coated carpets if you're really worried about exposure. EPA PFAS page... www.epa.gov/pfas/basic-information-pfasOther relevant documents: pfas-1.itrcweb.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/pfas_fact_sheet_history_and_use__11_13_17.pdfwww.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2019-02/documents/pfas_action_plan_021319_508compliant_1.pdfwww.atsdr.cdc.gov/pfc/docs/pfas_fact_sheet.pdfwww.atsdr.cdc.gov/pfas/docs/pfas_clinician_fact_sheet_508.pdfNote that info is changing almost weekly.
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Post by autumnmist on Jul 15, 2019 14:10:05 GMT -8
walkswithblackflies , thanks so much for the very thorough answer; I really appreciate it, especially the information about municipal water. I vaguely recall reading something about the community tests for this but kind of glossed over it (shame on me), so I'll have to check that out more. Just addressing a few questions: I'm on City water, from the Detroit system. As I understand it, the city buys the water from the Detroit system and resells it to us. I'm not all that comfortable with water from Detroit, but other than completely going to bottled water, folks in this area have no other option, nor do the many other communities serviced by the Detroit Water system. There are communities still on well water and septic systems, but they're in the less congested areas of the county. I don't use any Teflon coated pans any more, haven't for years. I only use stainless steel, even though I also have cast iron pans. The carpet was here when I moved in in 1980; it's old, the padding has deteriorated and I'm slowly cutting out sections to get rid of all the carpeting. I don't know whether it was Scotch-guarded when I moved in. I do have a Scotch-guarded couch though. I'm wondering if that could be an issue. If so, I'll cover it until I can arrange to have it recovered. It's disappointing to learn that Scotch guarding could be an issue and I'm wondering now about that couch, and whether it contributed to my sister's cancer (although I know there was another factor). Give me some time to review the fact sheets you're referenced, educate myself more, and get back to you. Again, thanks for the links and info; I was kind of "freaking out" when I saw that chart showing Michigan as apparently having more PFAS than other states, or rather a larger area of concentration.
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Post by autumnmist on Jul 16, 2019 10:01:51 GMT -8
walkswithblackflies , I printed out all of the cites you gave except the third one (72 pages long), which I'll read after the others. The last one, focusing on the medical community's approach, was very helpful, and practical. I've sent the link to my niece who's a nurse, studying for her NP degree, and who frequently works in the NiCU in addition to her ER job. I think she'd be interested in knowing how it can affect babies. The links are all professional level and more helpful than the sometimes inflammatory 6 pm news reports, which rarely delve into much beyond the basics.
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walkswithblackflies
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Post by walkswithblackflies on Jul 16, 2019 10:42:16 GMT -8
City of Detroit Water Quality Reports, no violations: 2017: detroitmi.gov/sites/detroitmi.localhost/files/2018-06/153977-GreatLakesWater-2017WaterReport.pdf2018: detroitmi.gov/media/25311Results of PFAS sampling of public* water supplies: www.michiganradio.org/post/pfas-where-have-they-been-found-public-water-suppliesOf over 1,500 public water systems and schools tested, only 6 returned total PFAS test results over 70 ppt at some point during the study (although the EPA limit only applies to PFOA and PFOS, not total PFAS). *typically includes mobile home parks and community supply systems Scotch-guard... you have to remember that the presence of the chemical is not the hazard. It is the actual EXPOSURE to the chemical... i.e. - how is it going to get in your body... and the dose. The main pathways are ingestion, absorption (through skin), and inhalation. Studies to date have not shown a high absorption rate for PFAS, and although there will some amount of off-gassing, the fact that Scotch-guard remains effective for decades suggests the amount of off-gassing is inconsequential. Therefore, you're left with ingestion. Contaminated drinking water, degrading teflon... these would certainly be likely exposures. But what are the chances you'll ingest Scotch-guard coated fibers, and what would be the actual amount of PFAS on those fibers? Not zero... but pretty close to it. Rest easy... your sister likely had a greater chance of getting struck by a meteor while sitting on your couch, than contracting cancer from the Scotch-guard on it. FWIW... I have still have no issues using teflon-coated pans, or Scotch-guarded furniture in my house. By adhering to common-sense practices (such as not using steel spatulas on pans), my exposure will be minimal. Again, the main (and almost exclusive) pathway for PFAS exposure is ingestion of contaminated water.
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walkswithblackflies
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Post by walkswithblackflies on Jul 16, 2019 11:15:23 GMT -8
It now appears that Michigan has more PFAS contamination in water than any other state. --- They probably have just tested more. NYS is currently testing all their brownfield sites. As I suspected. At least Michigan is forthcoming about their results. [New York] State officials refuse to share test results from 135 PFAS-tainted sources despite public health riskAt least 135 public water systems across the state are contaminated with cancer-causing chemicals known as PFAS at levels above recommended thresholds for mandatory cleanup, according to state water sampling data.
And more than four times that many — 645 facilities, the state Department of Health estimates — will need to spend an average of $1.325 million each on upgrades if the Cuomo Administration adopts the thresholds and makes them enforceable as expected by late next year.
But hundreds of thousands of people who currently drink PFAS-tainted tap water from those compromised sources are in the dark about the health dangers because state officials aren’t sharing their sampling data with the public.
That policy of secrecy echos the official reaction several years ago to evidence of PFAS contamination in Hoosick Falls, said Elizabeth Moran, environmental policy director for New York Public Interest Research Group.
Hoosick Falls drew nationwide attention in when it belatedly ordered a drinking water ban in early 2016 — long after state and local officials knew about dangerously elevated levels of PFOA, a common PFAS compound. State agencies “knew but didn’t inform the public” for 18 months before the federal Environmental Protection Agency ordered public disclosure, Moran added.fingerlakes1.com/2019/05/07/state-officials-refuses-to-share-test-results-from-135-pfas-tainted-sources-despite-public-health-risk/
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Post by autumnmist on Jul 16, 2019 17:44:26 GMT -8
The main pathways are ingestion, absorption (through skin), and inhalation. Reinforcing your statements on exposure, this would suggest to me that the greatest exposure would be to those who might work with the chemicals and process them to the end stage, w/o adequate protection, and those who work with them afterward in various applications. But I'm assuming the manufacture of it would dictate workers wear protective clothing and gear. Thanks for the info and links on Detroit water quality. I'm feeling much more comfortable now. It's interesting how much more concentration there is on the West Coast of Michigan, around the larger cities, than on the East Coast. Some of those areas are very rural, and homes probably are still drawing from well water. Working through the last link, I found this, which provides a really good breakdown of the location of the sites of concern, including Selfridge ANGB, and communities where some relatives live. Thanks to your research, I can alert them. www.michigan.gov/pfasresponse/0,9038,7-365-86511_82704---,00.html As to NY, I'm wondering if eventually there will be another Love Canal situation. Thanks again; the advice and information you provided is very much appreciated. (And I an again sit on my favorite couch w/o become anxious about contamination.)
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walkswithblackflies
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Post by walkswithblackflies on Jul 17, 2019 6:01:52 GMT -8
Reinforcing your statements on exposure, this would suggest to me that the greatest exposure would be to those who might work with the chemicals and process them to the end stage, w/o adequate protection, and those who work with them afterward in various applications. But I'm assuming the manufacture of it would dictate workers wear protective clothing and gear. Correct. I didn't get into manufacture/use because that should already be addressed by OSHA.
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jazzmom
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Post by jazzmom on Jul 18, 2019 6:50:50 GMT -8
It now appears that Michigan has more PFAS contamination in water than any other state. --- They probably have just tested more. I live less than 1/4 mile from the Huron River, which is our primary water source. Seems like pretty extensive testing and mitigation over the last 4 years, including improving filters. www.michigan.gov/pfasresponse/0,9038,7-365-86510_88060_88065-476105--,00.html This reminds me of what happened in Woburn, Massachusetts in the 1980's, the subject of the book (and subsequent movie) "A Civil Action". I used to race at the Quannapowitt Yacht Club every weekend and remember a lot of people constantly complaining about their water. It tasted horrible and a lot of people used bottled water for drinking. Turns out their water was contaminated and a lot of people, many kids, got leukemia/cancer. I had stopped racing at QYC by the time the trial happened and was shocked when I read "A Civil Action". What struck me most was that even those people who drank bottled water got sick because the chemicals were being absorbed through their skin when taking showers, the effect maximized because the water was hot. We've been advised locally to avoid getting Huron River water in our mouths if swimming/wading and to not eat fish caught from the river.
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walkswithblackflies
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Post by walkswithblackflies on Jul 19, 2019 4:50:47 GMT -8
What struck me most was that even those people who drank bottled water got sick because the chemicals were being absorbed through their skin when taking showers, the effect maximized because the water was hot. I just want to reiterate that the testing done to date shows that PFAS does not readily absorb through skin. (And I'm not saying that you were suggesting so)
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walkswithblackflies
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Post by walkswithblackflies on Jun 26, 2020 10:42:40 GMT -8
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Post by autumnmist on Jun 26, 2020 11:04:43 GMT -8
Another scorched earth tactic from Trump the Destroyer. I recently read this article about this horror in Michigan: www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2019/04/25/pfas-contamination-michigan-water/3301354002/I'm almost ready to think that being a Borg could be a saving method to stay alive in this world we're all facing. Trump needs to live in one of the contaminated areas and experience what toxins in water are like for himself. Or let his kid grow in up a community with contaminated water and/or air.
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Post by absarokanaut on Jun 28, 2020 10:42:17 GMT -8
Thanks to all of you for posting this important information. Hoping the thread can stay where it is.
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jazzmom
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Post by jazzmom on Jun 28, 2020 18:18:11 GMT -8
Thanks for bumping this up.
I watched "Dark Waters" a few weeks ago. I don't think I had any clue that it went back as far as it did. Dupont is a seriously disgusting company.
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walkswithblackflies
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Post by walkswithblackflies on Aug 11, 2020 7:36:22 GMT -8
The study released on Thursday found that fry bags at Burger King, McDonald's, and Wendy's likely contained PFAS. McDonald's cardboard Big Mac containers were also likely treated with PFAS, as was one of the samples taken from a Burger King Whopper wrapper. All the bowls at Cava, Freshii, and Sweetgreen were found to likely contain PFAS, according to the study.www.businessinsider.com/mcdonalds-burger-king-packaging-contains-pfas-report-2020-8Particularly ironic… The Counter reported in 2019 that many of these "compostable" bowls used by fast-casual chains — which were positioned as an eco-friendly alternative to plastic — contain PFAS. Good article here about the compostable bowls: thecounter.org/pfas-forever-chemicals-sweetgreen-chipotle-compostable-biodegradable-bowls/Apparently, Sweetgreen has already made the change, and Chipotle will do so by year’s end. BPI will no longer certify packaging that contains over 100ppm fluorine. And I’ve got a bunch of frozen meals in the fridge at work that use these bowls… because I’m trying to eat healthy. D’oh!
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