franco
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Post by franco on Jul 11, 2019 1:18:48 GMT -8
franco ... Got it. Every one of the contenders was doping, except Cadel, who was still able to beat them all. I really don't know why you need to be such an ass over this. There is NO EVIDENCE whatsoever that Cadel was doping so what has happened to the "innocent till proven guilty ? " All youy have is guilty by association. Brilliant. In most sports someone , often several , have doped . So do you then assume that the rest also doped ?
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RumiDude
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Post by RumiDude on Jul 11, 2019 6:56:27 GMT -8
franco ... Got it. Every one of the contenders was doping, except Cadel, who was still able to beat them all. I really don't know why you need to be such an ass over this. There is NO EVIDENCE whatsoever that Cadel was doping so what has happened to the "innocent till proven guilty ? " All youy have is guilty by association. Brilliant. In most sports someone , often several , have doped . So do you then assume that the rest also doped ? Franco, it is NOT a matter of beeing an ass but being realistic in evaluating the likelihood. It's Baysean. So repeating that Cadel Evans never tested positive or any other hard evidence completely misses the point. It's simply not credible that he was able to compete and win against all those who were doping. Doping was and probably still is endemic in pro-cycling. Remember "absense of evidence does not mean evidence of absence". We know now that "everyone" was doping in the peloton back then, including domestiques. Even in the amatuer ranks they doped and very few got caught because it was so difficult to catch them with microdosing and masking agents. There is no evidence that Miguel Indurain ever doped. He was a very nice person and modest. He was well liked and showed great courage in his racing career. But it is an absolute certainty he doped MASSIVELY for all his success. The same goes for every successful cyclist since Big Mig. That was the beginning of EPO, HGH, steroids, etc being introduced to the peloton. Before that it was pot belge which probably did almost as much harm as it did good to boost performance. Eddy Merkx got busted for it and was kicked out of the Giro. Cadel Evans raced during the golden age of doping in cycling racing. Despite having never tested positive, Cadel along with almost every other pro-cyclist, most likely used PEDs. It would not have been possible for him to compete and win against all the other cyclists that were using. And innocent until proven guilty is just not a good defence cause this isn't a court of law. Rumi <~~~~~not naive
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gabby
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Post by gabby on Jul 11, 2019 9:19:39 GMT -8
Today's stage (6?) was a thriller. Ciccone took the yellow after a breakaway and nearly winning the stage, and now leads by 6 seconds for the yellow. That last section of gravel looked crazy.
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walkswithblackflies
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Post by walkswithblackflies on Jul 11, 2019 9:45:54 GMT -8
Not much to add to what Rumi said, except:
There was no evidence whatsoever that Armstrong was doping either. You mentioned blood tests that weren't made public... but the coverup IS A MAJOR PART OF THE SYSTEMIC FRAUD that was occurring. That fraud that casts a shadow on all the results from that time.
There are lots of other riders who never failed a test, but yet, received fines/bans. Look at Rasmussen. He later admitted to doping HIS ENTIRE CAREER. Never failed a single test. How many others like him? Several former riders have admitted to (and written books about) the PED culture in the peloton, and how "everyone" was doing it.
No one was awarded the TdF GC after Armstrong's wins were vacated. Why? Because they concluded that PED use was so rampant and systemic that they couldn't trust any of the results. That's why there is guilt by association. (And speaking of association, its documented that Cadel associated with Dr. Ferrari. Smoking gun? No. But it should raise an eyebrow.)
And for the record, I like Cadel.
ETA: Also, for a sport where cardio is so important, there sure are a lot of riders who have been diagnosed with "asthma".
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walkswithblackflies
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Post by walkswithblackflies on Jul 11, 2019 10:05:13 GMT -8
Lewis Black, on Lance Armstrong:
This is a guy who cancer in his lungs, his brains, his testicles. He lost one of his balls, for Christ's sake. And he's getting double the amount of oxygen out of every breath!? The question shouldn't be 'was he doping?' but 'why aren't all of us doping?'
OK... I'll get off the PED talk now and start discussing the actual race.
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RumiDude
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Post by RumiDude on Jul 11, 2019 10:57:47 GMT -8
ETA: Also, for a sport where cardio is so important, there sure are a lot of riders who have been diagnosed with "asthma". No kidding. At one time there were about a third of the pro-riders that had medical exemptions, mostly for asthma. The UCI is compromised overlooking the doping problem. They are promoting the sport for money and so doping scandals makes the sport look bad, especially to sponsors. That makes for coverups, and likely that Armstrong was not the first nor the last to benefit from the UCI looking the other way. What is weird is that so many riders have admitted to doping but did not get their results taken away from them. Mr 60% Bjarne Riis for example. Rumi <~~~~never failed a math test
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franco
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Post by franco on Jul 11, 2019 15:13:53 GMT -8
The only time Cadel met Dr Ferrari was before he became a road rider and it was for some tests to determine if he was suitable for it switching from a mountain bike background. www.cyclingnews.com/news/evans-confirms-fitness-test-taken-with-ferrari-in-2000/"We know now that "everyone" was doping in the peloton back then, including domestiques".no "we" don't. If everyone was doping it would have been a level playing field. it was not.That is why certain teams stood out from the rest.
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RumiDude
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Post by RumiDude on Jul 11, 2019 18:14:08 GMT -8
"We know now that "everyone" was doping in the peloton back then, including domestiques".no "we" don't. Yes we do! You can deny it all you want but that is the truth. The evidence is simply overwhelming on multiple levels. If everyone was doping it would have been a level playing field. it was not.That is why certain teams stood out from the rest. No, every team and individual had different approaches to doping. Some teams and individuals did it better than others. Rumi
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walkswithblackflies
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Post by walkswithblackflies on Jul 12, 2019 6:04:49 GMT -8
That last section of gravel looked crazy. The gradient of the top section was said to be around 24%. To put that in perspective, there are a couple of roads here in Syracuse that are between 24-30%. They are paved with brick. Why? Because when it gets warm, asphalt would slowly flow down the road.
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Hungry Jack
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Post by Hungry Jack on Jul 12, 2019 7:32:23 GMT -8
That last section of gravel looked crazy. The gradient of the top section was said to be around 24%. To put that in perspective, there are a couple of roads here in Syracuse that are between 24-30%. They are paved with brick. Why? Because when it gets warm, asphalt would slowly flow down the road. I have ridden some gradients like that on a ride called the "Hilly Hundred" run every fall around Bloomington, IN. Those country roads aren't made for trucks! They were all paved. I cannot imagine trying to ride something that steep with gravel on a roadie. You pretty much have to get out of the saddle on those (I certainly do), and the slippage of the rear wheel would end your climb pretty quickly.
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walkswithblackflies
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Post by walkswithblackflies on Jul 12, 2019 7:54:00 GMT -8
I stand corrected. The gradient is "Infinity %". LOL! You pretty much have to get out of the saddle on those (I certainly do), and the slippage of the rear wheel would end your climb pretty quickly. There are a couple of very steep rural oil & stone roads in my area. And when they are dry and dirty, slippage is a pain. Even worse if wet and the surface is worn smooth.
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Post by High Sierra Fan on Jul 12, 2019 7:57:32 GMT -8
I expect that’s why they chip sealed the last bit: put in some gravel for the caché of it and then set up the final push on a more reliable surface.
With multi use rail to trails being turned to more and more as a great way to get out from the traffic gravel is getting more and more popular.
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Post by High Sierra Fan on Jul 12, 2019 13:42:14 GMT -8
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gabby
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Post by gabby on Jul 15, 2019 8:43:34 GMT -8
Stage 10: Team Sky Team Ineos, ever the smart boys, pulled a SURPRISE! SURPRISE! by putting themselves in control and putting Geraint Thomas in position for the Pyrenees. Movistar lost bigtime, Pinot got ditched.
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walkswithblackflies
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Post by walkswithblackflies on Jul 15, 2019 10:19:05 GMT -8
Tough people these cyclists. Adrenalin is a wonderful thing.
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