RumiDude
Trail Wise!
Marmota olympus
Posts: 2,361
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Post by RumiDude on May 26, 2019 10:16:42 GMT -8
I don't think trail work is a prerequisite or requirement for user groups. Much of that depends greatly on the past organizational efforts. Here in Washington, Backcountry Horsemen have done a huge portion of work in the past and are well organized to do so. They cooperate with other groups. The Washington Trail Association is a hiking group that grew out of the environmental movement decades ago. There are smaller organizations all over the state as well. Many other user groups are also involved with hiker groups, and that would include mtn biking and trail runners. That there isn't a trail running org doing trail work (that I am aware of) doesn't mean they haven't contributed. Many people in WTA don't even hike much at all, it is just a volunteer opportunity for them, and the same applies to other groups.
Also, many people that use the trails but don't do trail work may be heavily involved in other volunteer giving, like schools, art, health, and other civic organizations. The entire issue of volunteer work is being used to bash people and user groups. That in itself is crap!
I think user groups can/should cooperate where their common interests overlap. It is also OK for them to emphasize their own priorities over those of other user groups.
Rumi
EDIT: Here's a video about trail running and a connection to conservation.
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Hungry Jack
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Living and dying in 3/4 time...
Posts: 3,809
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Post by Hungry Jack on May 26, 2019 12:22:10 GMT -8
It was very common during my trips in southern Illinois. OMG as I was reading your post, the first thing that came to mind was the River To River trail. And then you go and mention Southern Illinois... Backpackers and hikers are in the minority down there, to put it mildly. It’s hard for me to get too licensed about this, as the local economy depends a lot on horseback tourism. But the trail damage was extensive after rain.
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toejam
Trail Wise!
Hiking to raise awareness
Posts: 1,795
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Post by toejam on May 26, 2019 13:02:48 GMT -8
That article is ridiculous. The author makes himself look like an ass.
I recently became involved with a local "trail alliance" group where representatives of several trail user groups meet to discuss local issues. The group's most active and organized member is a horseback rider representing two horse groups, the most well-represented group is a mountain bike group that does a ton of trail work. There are also trail runners, civic groups, and hikers/backpackers. The only local trail user group that could possibly be regarded as "lazy parasites" would be children.
Interesting to me has been getting to know the mountain bikers. I curse them on a regular basis because they've ruined many good hikes and have little regard for wilderness boundaries. But the ones involved in the alliance are good people who want to do right by the land, the trails, and all the users.
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Post by autumnmist on May 27, 2019 8:54:23 GMT -8
That article is ridiculous. The author makes himself look like an ass. I often think it would be better if articles and strong viewpoints like those of the author just weren't published. It's difficult enough to find cohesiveness and cooperation on many levels, well beyond the issue of trails, and people who only contribute to divisiveness to express intense personal opinions may cause more harm than they realize. Sometimes I think schools and colleges should have mandatory courses in learning how to live and work with others, perhaps on local improvement projects or even trail maintenance. On many levels, I see separation in society, not cohesiveness.
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Post by bradmacmt on May 27, 2019 11:30:20 GMT -8
I have no issue with trail runners. I can tolerate horse packers (even though stock are tough on trails). And, they are a "natural" form of transportation.
Here in Montana, the horse packers do more to maintain trails than all the backpackers combined (and the genesis of most Western trails is from horse packers).
However, I have ZERO tolerance for bikes, and it's not a group I'd work with... theirs is a Pandora's box leading to more and more compromise.
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Post by absarokanaut on May 28, 2019 13:02:57 GMT -8
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rebeccad
Trail Wise!
Writing like a maniac
Posts: 12,632
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Post by rebeccad on May 29, 2019 8:01:10 GMT -8
I have been a trail runner and a hiker. I don’t run any more (alas), but at no time was I only a runner and not a hiker. Since I never joined a trail crew, does that make my running more parasitic than my hiking?
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toejam
Trail Wise!
Hiking to raise awareness
Posts: 1,795
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Post by toejam on May 30, 2019 11:19:34 GMT -8
does that make my running more parasitic than my hiking? Ignore the trail shaming - it's his problem, not yours.
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rebeccad
Trail Wise!
Writing like a maniac
Posts: 12,632
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Post by rebeccad on May 30, 2019 11:46:59 GMT -8
does that make my running more parasitic than my hiking? Ignore the trail shaming - it's his problem, not yours. Don’t worry; if I feel ashamed it’s not for running, but for all the years I’ve said I should go join a work day and haven’t. I was just pointing out the absurdity of the author’s nonsense.
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toejam
Trail Wise!
Hiking to raise awareness
Posts: 1,795
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Post by toejam on May 30, 2019 20:00:52 GMT -8
I just thought it was fun to say trail shaming.
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Post by cweston on Jun 3, 2019 6:10:27 GMT -8
I actually prefer trails that are poorly maintained...with downed trees blocking the trail, and washed out sections, specifically because it discourages horse and mountain bike traffic. As usual, we are of one mind on this. I'm totally fine with trails built and maintained for horse and MTB travel in places where the environment can sustain it. Just make sure that there are also trails NOT built to those standards, so that hikers who would rather climb over some deadfall without the horses and bikes can do so. Yet another reason why my hikes are mostly in USFS designated wilderness areas. that takes care of the MTBs, and the terrain itself usually takes care of the horse campers. Also, my beef with horse campers is not so much with what they do to the trails, but with what they do to camps. And I don't even mean the manure, although that can be unpleasant. It seems that horse campers are the worst stewards in terms of LNT and leaving their garbage around camps. And it's extra infuriating that it's not even the people who would have to carry it out--it's the horses!
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jazzmom
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a.k.a. TigerFan
Posts: 3,054
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Post by jazzmom on Jun 3, 2019 6:54:32 GMT -8
I've never been a trail runner or biker but I'm dating one and my impression is that the "problem" (as seen from a hiker's point of view) is that they seem to really like organizing group events, rides, races, etc. and there's usually a large social aspect to them that don't align well with the wilderness areas chosen, and definitely conflicts with hikers' objectives. There was a rash of huge R2R trail-running events at the Grand Canyon a few years ago. No one wants to encounter 200 trail runners below the rim, and pretty much every hiker who did came away with a story of rude runners. I don't think there was any hope of avoiding it even if most of the runners were perfectly polite.
From a financial point of view, riders/runners pay to participate in these groups/events, sometimes a lot. I think most of them feel they've "paid" for their participation in the sport, and don't try to itemize out what part, if any, actually went to maintain the trails.
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rebeccad
Trail Wise!
Writing like a maniac
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Post by rebeccad on Jun 3, 2019 8:26:55 GMT -8
I've never been a trail runner or biker but I'm dating one and my impression is that the "problem" (as seen from a hiker's point of view) is that they seem to really like organizing group events, rides, races, etc. and there's usually a large social aspect to them that don't align well with the wilderness areas chosen, and definitely conflicts with hikers' objectives. There was a rash of huge R2R trail-running events at the Grand Canyon a few years ago. No one wants to encounter 200 trail runners below the rim, and pretty much every hiker who did came away with a story of rude runners. I don't think there was any hope of avoiding it even if most of the runners were perfectly polite. From a financial point of view, riders/runners pay to participate in these groups/events, sometimes a lot. I think most of them feel they've "paid" for their participation in the sport, and don't try to itemize out what part, if any, actually went to maintain the trails. Leave it to me to be so out of touch that I had no idea. I guess I knew ultra-marathons usually use trails. I just didn’t realize there were enough of them to matter. Of course, any such organized event has to have permits, etc., to use park or FS lands, so seems like there should be a significant fee that goes to infrastructure support, and limits on how many and how often. Then you publicize, so people know to stay off those trails that day. As for R2R races, I say no. Just no. That kind of event doesn’t belong in a national park, and especially not in one as over-used and fragile/hazardous as that. So I call that a bad decision on the part of the Parks.
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jazzmom
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a.k.a. TigerFan
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Post by jazzmom on Jun 3, 2019 9:51:41 GMT -8
I just didn’t realize there were enough of them to matter. Here in Michigan, it can easily be a full-time job every summer with all of the runs, rides, triathlons, mini-triathlons out there. User groups/associations organize them with commercial sponsorship. Businesses like that it brings in hundreds of people to what would otherwise be a quiet remote area. Participants like the after-parties; vineyards, breweries, etc. are really popular. The population isn't all that big -- they all seem to know each other -- but it's not hard to end up with that "Trail Days" atmosphere. At the GC, no permits used to be required for day use, so non-commercial groups were organizing these R2R events willy-nilly for a while. They now enforce a permit for non-commercial/non-profit group runs with more than 12 people, but the fee is relatively low ($200 for 12-30 people.) Unfortunately, charging a group fee just encourages the groups to take the maximum number of people in order to minimize the per-person cost. Even with this new enforcement, there are several R2R running events every year.
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FamilySherpa
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Tangled up in Rhododendron
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Post by FamilySherpa on Jun 3, 2019 10:31:03 GMT -8
This thread has actually had the opposite effect that i thought it would.
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