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Post by johntpenca on May 24, 2019 11:46:38 GMT -8
Everest is for rich punters seeking bragging rights in the board room. And guides making $$$. No alpinists worth the the term would touch it with a ten foot pole unless for profit. And yes, that's the Hillary Step, a bottleneck that has been where many have died.
Sad thing is the sherpas pay the highest price. Any death in the mountains is unfortunate. We all take risks every day equally as fateful as climbers.
ETA: Everest is the highest peak, but far from the most aesthetic or challenging with regards to difficulty. These days anyone with $100k and a healthy set of lungs can be dragged up it. Getting down is where it gets iffy.
It lost it's allure to true alpinists many years ago.
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ErnieW
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Post by ErnieW on May 25, 2019 5:56:24 GMT -8
When I was young there were no bounds. I had a life inflection point about climbing Everest. I realized I hit an age and life trajectory that I would never climb Everest. Not that I particularly ever wanted to but it was that was a closed off option. Forced a little getting used to growing older.
Now if I was a 17 year old trust fund baby I couldn't climb Everest.
Traffic.
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Post by bradmacmt on May 25, 2019 9:55:19 GMT -8
Everest is for rich punters seeking bragging rights in the board room. And guides making $$$. No alpinists worth the the term would touch it with a ten foot pole unless for profit. And yes, that's the Hillary Step, a bottleneck that has been where many have died. Sad thing is the sherpas pay the highest price. Any death in the mountains is unfortunate. We all take risks every day equally as fateful as climbers. ETA: Everest is the highest peak, but far from the most aesthetic or challenging with regards to difficulty. These days anyone with $100k and a healthy set of lungs can be dragged up it. Getting down is where it gets iffy. It lost it's allure to true alpinists many years ago. All true (aside from the simplistic judgement of individual motivation)... but don't forget the Nepalese government's need for foreign funds which has put them in the position of allowing too many groups on the mountain. Of course this also jeopardizes the lives of Sherpas... |
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Post by autumnmist on May 25, 2019 10:23:33 GMT -8
I'm going to take polite issue with the assumption that Everest climbers are wealthy people. I'm sure there are many who fall in that category; I think climbing Everest has in fact become an accomplishment for their perhaps work free lives, something to brag about. But two family members also climbed (to the first second base camp I believe (that was all they could afford). This was about 10 years ago, but also climbed Mt. Kili twice.
They were military people, used to challenges, and climbed as a goal as they aged. They weren't rich, and they certainly appreciated the challenges as well as accomplishments.
It's unfortunate that Everest has become such an attraction for those who perhaps have little understanding of the mountain, its history, its special aura, and its literal existence as a force of its own. And it's unfortunate that the guides have been gradually put into a position of depending on the climbing wealth. It's a corruption of the nature and beauty and special significance of Everest, and a literal insult to the aura it has as well as the place it holds in religion and beliefs of the native peoples in that region.
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Post by johntpenca on May 25, 2019 15:42:01 GMT -8
All true (aside from the simplistic judgement of individual motivation)... but don't forget the Nepalese government's need for foreign funds which has put them in the position of allowing too many groups on the mountain. Of course this also jeopardizes the lives of Sherpas... Yer right about the simplistic view as towards motivation in my post. But I'll stand by my contention that few, if any people attempting the climb have the experience to do it on their own without sherpas fixing ropes, establishing camps, cooking, hauling loads and literally hauling them up. |
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Post by johntpenca on May 25, 2019 15:48:14 GMT -8
I'm going to take polite issue with the assumption that Everest climbers are wealthy people. The cost to climb Everest runs around $100k for a guided climb once gear, transport, guides and permits are taken into account. But two family members also climbed (to the first second base camp I believe (that was all they could afford). Getting to basecamp costs around $20k these days. And it is hardly climbing. Steep trails and teahouses. Basecamp lies around 17,500 feet, so that is an accomplishment in itself. |
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Post by Lamebeaver on May 27, 2019 16:25:25 GMT -8
The death toll is up to 11 now.
Trust fund baby or not, your money won't save you above 26,000'.
Many died on the way down. Seems like the whole thing has gotten out of hand.
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Post by autumnmist on May 28, 2019 7:26:01 GMT -8
This is just such a travesty. Perhaps the gods are angered by the abuse and sacrilege of the mountain.
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tomas
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Post by tomas on May 28, 2019 14:04:35 GMT -8
I was listening to CNN on the radio while driving home today and was astonished by two things that I heard. First, a guide said that there are clients at Everest who have never climbed a mountain before. That's criminal in my book on the part of any guide service. Second, there was an interview with a 17yo girl who had made it to the summit. Now I am impressed and it's a far greater achievement than I ever managed at the tender age of 17, yet I have to wonder just how well honed are any 17yo's climbing skills.
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Post by autumnmist on May 28, 2019 14:15:21 GMT -8
there are clients at Everest who have never climbed a mountain before I'd love to see what contracts the climbers signed and the indemnification and release clauses in those contracts. I hope the guides had some good legal counsel to tighten up the contracts so they couldn't be sued. I also wonder who was ultimately in charge of the selection process, allowing people with no climbing experience to even participate in such a challenging venture. Somehow that doesn't seem to fit what I've read about the guides, and their concerns about how they've been treated in the past. And I still feel unsettled about the abuse of the mountain. Although it's not anthropomorphic, I can't help thinking it has an aura and personality of its own, which has been challenged if not abused and disrespected by the unfortunate events that are occurring. |
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Post by johntpenca on May 28, 2019 14:23:59 GMT -8
I'd love to see what contracts the climbers signed and the indemnification and release clauses in those contracts. I hope the guides had some good legal counsel to tighten up the contracts so they couldn't be sued. I also wonder who was ultimately in charge of the selection process, allowing people with no climbing experience to even participate in such a challenging venture. Somehow that doesn't seem to fit what I've read about the guides, and their concerns about how they've been treated in the past. The indemnifications are pretty iron clad unless there is gross negligence to my understanding. Selection is based on who can pay the money. There is no qualification process. If you can pony up the cash, you're in. Dragging folks up the mountain is a major source of income for the sherpas. That is all and well, but the sherpas are the ones at highest risk. Not saying summiting is a walk in the park (highest I've been is 14,000). It takes a lot of conditioning and physical fortitude. But when someone else does all the work (fixing ropes, setting up camp, cooking, carrying gear and 02) other than putting one foot in front of the other and jugging a rope, has one really climbed it? Yeah, you get to the top, but...... |
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Post by trinity on May 29, 2019 6:05:01 GMT -8
A few days ago I heard a news anchor refer to Mount Everest as a "popular but deadly tourist attraction." That's pretty much what it has turned into.
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Post by bradmacmt on May 29, 2019 6:27:06 GMT -8
If people want to kill themselves on the world's highest garbage dump, that's on them.
And BTW, an increase in cut-rate climbs (30-40K - not 100K) with inexperienced guides is apparently part of the problem this year.
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Post by autumnmist on May 29, 2019 6:56:47 GMT -8
The indemnifications are pretty iron clad unless there is gross negligence to my understanding. Then the issues would likely turn on what constitutes gross negligence. For mountain climbing and all that's related, that's probably a fascinating field. I've never researched it, but I'm guessing there is some case law. And one of the issues would be the factors of this year's climb, including bradmacmt's observation of "cut rate" climbs, inexperienced guides, guide company's obligations, and more. This could be quite interesting, from the legal perspective. From the human perspective, it's more than sad given the tragedies that have occurred. I wonder if there are attorneys who specialize in mountain climbing law, if that's even a field. I'd hesitate to speculate that if not, it may become so after this year. |
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Post by ecocentric on May 29, 2019 7:41:24 GMT -8
I'm sad for the mountain. Trash, sewage, and corpses are not fitting sacrifices to be left at a place that is holy to some, and awe inspiring to almost everyone else. I try to be cautious about being too quick to criticize the risks that others take, until I know just how serious they are about taking those risks. There are things that I've done that others may have seen as foolhardy, but I was pretty systematic about building the skill set needed. Just like astronauts and test pilots that live to test the envelope, there are people who's lives are all about alpinism, whether it is love or obsession. Unless you are one of those people, you don't have much business planning trips to the Death Zone.
There are still plenty of mountains to climb and rivers to run, but many of the places where I used to find solitude are now quite popular. We are losing good places to get lost. Many of us travel great distances to see those world class sights, living large with our carbon budgets to get back to nature for a couple of weeks. We are all a little bit of the problem.
For all of those climbers that didn't make the trip back down, I hope you found what you were looking for. RIP
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