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Post by autumnmist on Dec 13, 2018 13:02:33 GMT -8
I am concerned about how it may be handled if I call anyone. It wasn't easy pulling my grandmother, who I loved dearly, from her home. Her final years were awful. That was my concern. I know from your posts that you're able to handle the situation, but he might not be, and it could push him farther into unacceptable and antisocial behavior, increasing the risk to the public. I'm sorry to learn about your grandmother's challenges. As sophisticated as contemporary society is, we still haven't found solutions for some aspects of aging I wouldn't give up on the township just yet. What I'd first do though is develop a plan; if you can and want to, you might consider these steps: 1. The tract index or register of deeds or similar department should have hard copies of any conveyance document to the Township, as well as restrictions and related issues to establishment and maintenance of the trail. This would provide insight into whether fences or barriers can be erected to protect hikers. There may also be zoning conditions that need to be addressed. 2. Ask others you know who hike that trail if they're familiar with township officials who might have older parents or have been caregivers. Perhaps you can approach them privately seeking advice, while gaining their sympathy and support. If you can build up that kind of interest and support before any public meeting, I think you'll have more success in whatever you try to do. 3. Contact the county health department; they may have someone who can do an assessment on the fellow and locate county or other governmental resources that could help him, and/or his family if he has any children. I've been told that our county health department has a respite care program; if he can interact with people on a nonviolent basis, a respite care worker might be able to visit, provide companionship, and report back with an assessment of what else might be necessary. In my father's area, the Meals on Wheels staff are professionals working with volunteer delivery people. If a County respite worker feels MOW would be helpful not only for nutrition but for social purposes, this could open the door for better relations with him, and at least would give him an opportunity for social interaction (if he's amenable), and building trust. 4. My thoughts are to work to get a sympathetic group together, then approach township officials with a plan, possibly with county backing, or APS. The Area Aging on Aging folks could also help, depending on the breadth of their scope of operations. There's also an Aging in Place program by which the AAA works with elderly and/or their families to locate resources to keep older people in their home. Suggestions might be made to get personal alert devices, exterior sensor activated lights, wellness checks and more to help him feel safer in his home. 5. A coalition of people who have been threatened, but are also concerned about this man's safety, might be able to convince the Township to install protective fences along and beyond his property, far enough along the trail that he wouldn't want to leave his house to chase someone down. But I definitely would not approach them w/o a plan - help and allow the Township officials think they developed a solution and they'll feel better about it. |
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Post by fifeplayer on Dec 13, 2018 16:13:38 GMT -8
Awwww, poor guy. This just sucks all around. Assuming no other factors, I agree with the sundowning thing. I’d also be concerned about the aggressive behavior...just because it’s sundowning doesn’t mean it can’t have a bad outcome. Older people are usually very functional in their familiar environments, and unless there are additional issues, I’d hate for this to be the thing that puts this guy out of his home into a long term care facility. Agree with calling APS, though, just in case there are other issues already present, and taking care when walking by there in the dark. As bad as it sounds, I’d treat it as if you are walking past a mentally unstable person’s house, attempt to appear non threatening if confronted, and redirect if possible. Don’t argue with him...it’s like trying to reason with a drunk person - it never works. If you are willing to put some time and effort into it, I think your best bet might actually be trying to get a fence installed on that portion of trail. His house is isolated, and he may feel less threatened if there is a physical barrier there, and it might be the best - albeit not easiest - solution.
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zeke
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Post by zeke on Dec 13, 2018 16:26:09 GMT -8
Your red line appears to be a paved Rail to Trail section. If that's the case, then there are good records about the trail. As sad as it is for the elderly man, he may need assistance and can't recognize it. By bringing this behavior to the attention of the township, he may benefit.
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Post by johntpenca on Dec 13, 2018 16:33:46 GMT -8
The guy is old and lost it since his wife passed. Give him his space; his grieving over rides your walking.
I didn't read the whole thread, so may be off base. Just sounds like an old guy lost in misery.
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Post by k9education on Dec 13, 2018 17:53:37 GMT -8
I am concerned about how it may be handled if I call anyone. It wasn't easy pulling my grandmother, who I loved dearly, from her home. Her final years were awful. 3. Contact the county health department; they may have someone who can do an assessment on the fellow and locate county or other governmental resources that could help him, and/or his family if he has any children. I've been told that our county health department has a respite care program; if he can interact with people on a nonviolent basis, a respite care worker might be able to visit, provide companionship, and report back with an assessment of what else might be necessary. This is what I ended up doing today. I went to the county website and discovered the Agency on Aging, who then referred me to another department that is going to send someone to assess him. I was very torn about doing this, but I'm going to feel even worse if he ends up going after someone with a rifle one day soon.
We are also going to refrain from walking down there for now.
Your red line appears to be a paved Rail to Trail section. If that's the case, then there are good records about the trail. As sad as it is for the elderly man, he may need assistance and can't recognize it. By bringing this behavior to the attention of the township, he may benefit. Correct. The guy is old and lost it since his wife passed. Give him his space; his grieving over rides your walking. I didn't read the whole thread, so may be off base. Just sounds like an old guy lost in misery. I certainly have sympathy for the guy, which is why I was conflicted about doing anything. This is a busy trail though that easily sees a couple dozen people per day in the winter and 100+/day in the summer, so it's not just us walking by. Anyway, we're going to refrain from walking down that way for now, but social services is going to go check on him. As I said above, I don't want to cause any problems for the guy, but I also don't want someone to get hurt because I did nothing. |
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RumiDude
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Post by RumiDude on Dec 13, 2018 17:57:26 GMT -8
Sundowning is not a separate disease, it is a symptom of dementia/Alzheimer. It seems likely this man is suffering from dementia. He is most likely just to be confrontational at this point, but he could suddenly get worse. And if he has a weapon, he could be dangerous. And that leads me to the next point ...
Document, document, document! Always report these things to the police and report them at the time they happen, not the next day. This leaves a record of the confrontations which is invaluable for others to make a good evaluation and take proper steps to help. If it is both you and your wife and both have phones, then one call 911 and the other record the incident. Not reporting does not help this man at all, nor you or other individuals that might possibly have conflicts with him.
As others have stated, the situation with many aging people is often heartbreaking. There are few good solutions to many of these situations. I wish you luck.
Rumi
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Post by autumnmist on Dec 13, 2018 18:46:43 GMT -8
k9education . I think you've made a good decision, one which is difficult to make under the circumstances and with limited options. Your decision may also bring help to someone who otherwise wouldn't have sought it for himself, or gotten it w/o some intervention. There's another possibility that could occur w/o intervention. He might fall, break a leg, and be unable to reach a phone to get help. That happened to one of my father's friends. She laid on the stair landing for 4 days before a neighbor checked on her and found her with a broken leg. That would be agony for anyone, but especially an older person. Please keep us up to date on what happens. I'm hoping for very good results, and also hope that you sleep peacefully tonight knowing that you've faced up to a challenging situation, analyzed your options and chose a good path to follow.
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Post by autumnmist on Dec 14, 2018 7:47:14 GMT -8
k9education, I thought of a few more issues, one just for reference and the second for an additional resource. 1. The farmer may have a Urinary Tract Infection. UTIs in seniors present differently than in someone younger, and can range from delusional, irrational behavior to hallucinations. (This is based on personal experience as well as that shared by others caring for elders.) 2. The farmer is old enough to have served in WWII, and if so, and if he's not getting benefits, he's entitled to some basic medical assistance. When the Area Agency on Aging intervenes, they'll probably address this.
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Post by k9education on Dec 14, 2018 12:31:38 GMT -8
k9education , I thought of a few more issues, one just for reference and the second for an additional resource. 1. The farmer may have a Urinary Tract Infection. UTIs in seniors present differently than in someone younger, and can range from delusional, irrational behavior to hallucinations. (This is based on personal experience as well as that shared by others caring for elders.) 2. The farmer is old enough to have served in WWII, and if so, and if he's not getting benefits, he's entitled to some basic medical assistance. When the Area Agency on Aging intervenes, they'll probably address this.
Re #1, he's been behaving this way for at least a year, so this appears to be something more long-term. Also, he sometimes still waves to us like we're pals so the behavior waxes and wanes. In any case, I'm going to leave this to the county for now. If they fail to do anything, I'll probably revisit the situation later.
As an animal lover, I'm a bit concerned about his dog also. My grandmother had me take her to the vet several times with the claim her cat wasn't eating. Each time the cat weighed more than the visit before. Then I stayed with her for 2 weeks to help out and saw her feed the cat over a dozen times per day. She simply didn't remember feeding the cat at all. By the time she moved in with us the cat looked like a Butterball turkey. :x
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Post by autumnmist on Dec 14, 2018 16:03:59 GMT -8
k9education, good point - I had forgotten about the dog. Does it appear to be well cared for? But not like a "Butterball turkey"? At least she was feeding the cat; some elders forget to feed the pet, and sometimes forget to eat themselves.
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Post by johntpenca on Dec 14, 2018 16:20:57 GMT -8
Re #1, he's been behaving this way for at least a year, so this appears to be something more long-term. Also, he sometimes still waves to us like we're pals so the behavior waxes and wanes. In any case, I'm going to leave this to the county for now. If they fail to do anything, I'll probably revisit the situation later. Sounds like the best plan. There seem to be underlying issues beyond what you can do. I could make some assumptions, but not being there will leave it at that. |
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Post by k9education on Dec 14, 2018 17:03:00 GMT -8
k9education , good point - I had forgotten about the dog. Does it appear to be well cared for? But not like a "Butterball turkey"? At least she was feeding the cat; some elders forget to feed the pet, and sometimes forget to eat themselves.
As far as I could tell from a distance, the dog looks ok atm. However, the dog is very aggressive towards other dogs and fairly aggressive towards strangers, so we are usually just walking by the property as quickly as possible.
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Travis
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Post by Travis on Dec 17, 2018 10:46:51 GMT -8
The Rail-to-Trails projects nearer to me were steeped in controversy at their beginning and for many years afterward. Some landowners near the trail still insist that the strip of land should have "reverted" to the landowners when the roadroads abandoned usage for railway traffic. Those farmer and rancher landowners hold that position despite the fact that the railway was there first. Therefore the landowners (or predecessors) never actually owned the land in question.
The legal principle of "Eminent Domain" was never actually employed to take possession of the strip of land necessary for a railway. The land was simply awarded to the railroads. Then farmers and ranchers purchased land bordering the railroad bed because of the expected ease of transporting crops and livestock to market. That was what was expected of the railways in horse-and-buggy days. Not to be dissuaded by legal history, many of the landowners still insist that governments (local, state, or federal) have no right to found trails on abandoned railway beds.
While the landowners above may in practice accept the fact of the trails, they harbor ill feelings about the entire process that brought them into existence. Whether they openly declare that the strip of land belongs to them, they believe it "should" belong to them. So they don't have to suffer from dementia or "sundowners" to occasionally get in the mood of feeling like the government is practically the root of all evil and the trail is just one of the locations those roots have usurped their property rights (as they see it.)
When I first read of your dilemma here, I half-seriously thought, "Hmmm, the old gent sounds like half the people I grew up around." Along a county road, some of those folks might post a sign reading, "Trespassers will be shot on sight." The same landowners could privately admit they would not shoot anyone, but they relished the thought that any outsider would be spooked. They'd be spooked enough by the sign to stay away or at least be very respectful of the landowner's property rights.
In times past I've worked on a daily basis around people like the landowners I mention. I could not recall how many times they threatened to shoot me or fill some stranger's backside with buckshot. Sometimes we had a good laugh about that. That's just the way they talked - especially when something roused their ire about the gov'ment.
Nonetheless, you are right to take this situation seriously. And personally, I think you are doing an admirable job of trying to be considerate of the old man's feelings and health. But ultimately, you apparently have a legal right to use the trail, and I would not give up on that. As Rumidude suggested, do try to accurately document any confrontations. In doing so, I suggest being very careful not to make assumptions. We don't know that the man suffers from dementia. Maybe, maybe not.
Ultimately valid or not, there are many speculations in this thread, including my own. There is a difference between actual threatening behavior and "feeling" threatened. But documentation takes time, and sometimes it is just easier to avoid the area until you've tried other means. That you seem to be doing. (Just my perspective. Pardon my verbosity.)
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